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Should the UK be In or Out of Europe?

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Topic: This Europe Stuff (Read 321287 times) previous topic - next topic
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Re: This Europe Stuff

Reply #9406
OK, but if that's the case then it makes no difference who is the nominal head of this caretaker government, so why not go with someone that everyone in the House likes and would be comfortable voting for, rather than someone who doesn't even have the full support and trust of his own party?

Because Jezza wants to be PM, then he can politically hold himself out as the saviour from no deal in the forthcoming election and hope to be the largest party.

Once again this is why I hate politicians - they are (in most cases) only in it for themselves and their own self aggrandisement

Re: This Europe Stuff

Reply #9407
As stated above. (https://talkback.trentend.co.uk/index.php?topic=974.msg164939#msg164939)

What do you think it is?  What is it that I'm not seeing that I should be scared of?
 


Corbyn talks about the things that you say, perhaps. While pursuing a policy that actually deregulates, removes individual rights, collective opportunity and prosperity. While demonising and scapegoating sections of society, inciting and condoning acts of bullying, racism, and even violence, against them.

He will create poverty, so there is poverty for him to solve, he will destroy your rights, so that he can fight for your rights, he will destroy your economy so that there is insufficient funding for services, which he will fight for.  He is a vacuum of reality, with a penchant for trenchant extremism, incapable of mainstream collective unity or compromise solutions. The better things are, the more he will fight to break things with more niche views. Not that I would expect that to be your problem. He will proper f*ck up everything he gets his fingers into.

At least the Johnson is just a vindictive self absorbed c*nt.

Not that your reply even began to address the question I actually asked. 
I'm a fcuking idiot. Clearly.

Re: This Europe Stuff

Reply #9408



Corbyn talks about the things that you say, perhaps. While pursuing a policy that actually deregulates, removes individual rights, collective opportunity and prosperity. While demonising and scapegoating sections of society, inciting and condoning acts of bullying, racism, and even violence, against them.

He will create poverty, so there is poverty for him to solve, he will destroy your rights, so that he can fight for your rights, he will destroy your economy so that there is insufficient funding for services, which he will fight for.  He is a vacuum of reality, with a penchant for trenchant extremism, incapable of mainstream collective unity or compromise solutions. The better things are, the more he will fight to break things with more niche views. Not that I would expect that to be your problem. He will proper f*ck up everything he gets his fingers into.

At least the Johnson is just a vindictive self absorbed c*nt.

Not that your reply even began to address the question I actually asked.

Pure conjecture which is irrelevant to the discussion in hand.

I see talk of how Ken could command the support of the house. No, that's the Lib Dems tryng to ensure that they can say they had an impact on the whole thing. Tell me this: if it came down to a vote of no confidence, and it was defeated by one vote because the Lib Dems could not countenance having Corbyn ask the EU for an extension to article 50 followed by a general election, and the result was the UK crashing out of the EU, whose fault would that be? Everyone who wants to avoid no deal votes against the government, including the likes of Dominic Grieve who is giving it serious consideration, yet the Lib Dems do not. Is that then Corbyn's fault?

Re: This Europe Stuff

Reply #9409



Corbyn talks about the things that you say, perhaps. While pursuing a policy that actually deregulates, removes individual rights, collective opportunity and prosperity. While demonising and scapegoating sections of society, inciting and condoning acts of bullying, racism, and even violence, against them.

He will create poverty, so there is poverty for him to solve, he will destroy your rights, so that he can fight for your rights, he will destroy your economy so that there is insufficient funding for services, which he will fight for.  He is a vacuum of reality, with a penchant for trenchant extremism, incapable of mainstream collective unity or compromise solutions. The better things are, the more he will fight to break things with more niche views. Not that I would expect that to be your problem. He will proper f*ck up everything he gets his fingers into.

Can you show me where you get this info?  I jibes with how the Tory press paint him.  I just don't recognise it.  I freely admit I may be missing vast chunks of information.


Quote
At least the Johnson is just a vindictive self absorbed c*nt.

Not that your reply even began to address the question I actually asked.

Okay, well, I think this is what Jeremy wants:

https://labour.org.uk/manifesto/

Because it's what was stated the last time it mattered. 

Re: This Europe Stuff

Reply #9410
Pure conjecture which is irrelevant to the discussion in hand.
 
 

Wrong. The first paragraph is demonstrably correct. The second the consequences of it that I, and most of the electorate fear, and why Corbyn is unelectable.

Would it be Corbyns fault? Yes. We are here in no part because of him. There is no trust in him and his moves in parliamentary terms, even on individual issues where there is cross party agreement. His 'offer' is purposely politically opportunistic, and problematic to many.

It's bizarre that you can't get it into your thick skull after three years of us trying to get through to you. If the most catastrophic political movement in our lifetime proceeds with almost no opposition, then a very large part of the responsibility for that falls on the head of the leader of the opposition.

So.

Yes, in large part Corbyns fault.
I'm a fcuking idiot. Clearly.

Re: This Europe Stuff

Reply #9411

It's bizarre that you can't get it into your thick skull after three years of us trying to get through to you.


Harsh. KM , whilst I think wrong on a few things, at least has the decency to discuss his POV rationally and with evidence and reasoning, unlike certain idiots (yes you Rich B) .
Jeff is an c*nt. 3 games without a win. #blameJeff

Re: This Europe Stuff

Reply #9412

 

Wrong. The first paragraph is demonstrably correct.


Is it?
Quote
Corbyn talks about the things that you say, perhaps. While pursuing a policy that actually deregulates, removes individual rights, collective opportunity and prosperity. While demonising and scapegoating sections of society, inciting and condoning acts of bullying, racism, and even violence, against them.

Demonstrably correct? I see nothingbut hyperbole and conjecture. You're very good at hyperbolic leaps when talking about no-deal Brexit yet, like a spring that has stretched too far you fly back the other way at the mention of Corbyn. I find your position completely illogical and baffling. The offer is, bring down Johnson, extend article 50 and then call a general election. He would not be able to do more than that, despite your irrelevant assertions, because parliament would not let him.

Quote
The second the consequences of it that I, and most of the electorate fear, and why Corbyn is unelectable.

Would it be Corbyns fault? Yes. We are here in no part because of him. There is no trust in him and his moves in parliamentary terms, even on individual issues where there is cross party agreement. His 'offer' is purposely politically opportunistic, and problematic to many.

And I suppose the Lilly white Lib Dems are not being politically opportunistic? Even Tory rebels are contemplating talks, yet somehow the Lib Dems have a sixth sense which enables them, and you, to forsee Corbyn somehow managing to turn the UK into a Stalinist totalitarian state despite having no majority in parliament to do anything other than what was agreed.


Quote
It's bizarre that you can't get it into your thick skull after three years of us trying to get through to you. If the most catastrophic political movement in our lifetime proceeds with almost no opposition, then a very large part of the responsibility for that falls on the head of the leader of the opposition.

So.

Yes, in large part Corbyns fault.

What I find bizarre is your seeming inability to accept that the Lib Dems are also playing political games. The SNP, Plaid Cymru and Green Party can see this, but you can't.

Re: This Europe Stuff

Reply #9413
Harsh. KM , whilst I think wrong on a few things, at least has the decency to discuss his POV rationally and with evidence and reasoning, unlike certain idiots (yes you Rich B) .

Meh, he's called me worse than that. Tricky is nothing if not thick skinned and expects the same of others. I can always respect that.

Re: This Europe Stuff

Reply #9414
At some point Corbyn's substantially greater votes have to have an influence. We're supposed to be defending democracy aren't we?

Re: This Europe Stuff

Reply #9415
Demonstrably correct? I see nothingbut hyperbole and conjecture. You're very good at hyperbolic leaps when talking about no-deal Brexit yet, like a spring that has stretched too far you fly back the other way at the mention of Corbyn. I find your position completely illogical and baffling. The offer is, bring down Johnson, extend article 50 and then call a general election. He would not be able to do more than that, despite your irrelevant assertions, because parliament would not let him.
 
 
Leaving the EU in any form does most of those things. We will lose rights to freedom of movement, protections of collective legislation, increase the cost and complexity of doing international trade, lose protected status for many of our niche goods, while shrinking our economy, deflating the currency, and exposing us to low regulation competition.

Jeremy Corbyn, the leader of the opposition, has opposed none of this. It's his policy... He jumps through many hoops to pretend it might not be. Nobody is fooled.

Jeremy Corbyn, an allegedly avowed advocate of equal rights and tolerant discourse, is actually guilty of actively encouraging the opposite. He has endorsed the message and shared platforms with international organisations censured by the UN, who have specifically endorsed violent action against sections of society, including members of his own party. He has subverted the internal disciplinary procedures to both slow down, and head off, action being taken against this. As he has failed to intervene in systematic bullying, abuse, and violence, against long standing party members, representatives, councillors, and even mps., by momentum (and other party's). He has not intervened. He's encouraged it in order to reshape the party in his own image.

Why has he done that?

Because the parliamentary labour party has repeatedly expressed no confidence in him. By more than 3:1.

So it is essential for his, and his followers, survival that dissent is driven out of the party. It has been through social media bullying, radicalisation takeovers of constituency labour party's, driving out party members, demonising centrist broad church representatives and members, and shifting the balance of the membership from broad church to personality cult adherents.

He has done this while being the leader of the opposition and not substantively opposing the greatest far right assault on people's rights and prosperity in all our lifetimes. At least from within the country. He has ignored numerous opportunities to oppose the govt. Numerous opportunities to strike alliances. Numerous chances to exploit weaknesses in the arguments, and seek to influence the debate.

If you could try to design a way to destroy the social democratic centre of most reasonable people's compromise politically, then it would be difficult to come up with a more efficient mechanism.

How curious that has come about at this point. How fortuitous for the very well, covertly, and illegally, funded forces marching against us.

Anyway. For all of these reasons, neither the Eurocentric right, the social democratic centre, nor even the excised moderate left, will trust him as far as they can throw him.

He doesn't have support in the country, the house, or the parliamentary party. Everything he touches is tainted. f*ck knows why he wants a GE that he can't win. Presumably because it's what the mysterious puppeteers want to give us all the impression of there being some movement, while it pretty much guarantees further stasis and mounting catastrophe.
I'm a fcuking idiot. Clearly.

Re: This Europe Stuff

Reply #9416
Blurb and conjecture

There is no possible majority for a second referendum in parliament. There is not enough time left on the article 50 clock to navel gaze and claim that Corbyn will turn the UK into Stalinist Russia, because he can't. His power will be strictly limited to what he says:. Extend article 50 in order to hold a general election. That general election would be better held based on MPs in parliament deciding it should happen than Dominic Cummings and Blobby holing themselves up in Number 10 until the UK crashes out of the EU. Your position is totally irrational and is the Meatloaf of politics: I'd do anything to stop no deal, but I won't do that

Re: This Europe Stuff

Reply #9417
Excellent! I am always pleased to hear the choreographed lines.

You still don't seem to realise that the genius of the facebook led far right campaign to destroy the country, funded by external forces, has been matched by a facebook led far left campaign to destroy the country, most likely funded by external forces.

Just imagine that if someone had the idea that rather than take one of the extremes and try to win a majority of swing centrists, they had the genuis idea of taking the two extreme wings and not needing to persuade the centre.

Then imagine what it feels like to be in that centre, and watch all potential collaborations in power to be untrustworthy and working on a different destructive agenda.

In many respects, for many people, the johnson and the magic grandpa are the same thing, and equally untrustworthy. Just for slightly different reasons.
I'm a fcuking idiot. Clearly.

Re: This Europe Stuff

Reply #9418
Excellent! I am always pleased to hear the choreographed lines.

You still don't seem to realise that the genius of the facebook led far right campaign to destroy the country, funded by external forces, has been matched by a facebook led far left campaign to destroy the country, most likely funded by external forces.

Just imagine that if someone had the idea that rather than take one of the extremes and try to win a majority of swing centrists, they had the genuis idea of taking the two extreme wings and not needing to persuade the centre.

Then imagine what it feels like to be in that centre, and watch all potential collaborations in power to be untrustworthy and working on a different destructive agenda.

In many respects, for many people, the johnson and the magic grandpa are the same thing, and equally untrustworthy. Just for slightly different reasons.

Yet still avoiding the central thrust of the argument. What cost no deal?

Re: This Europe Stuff

Reply #9419
What cost Corbyn as leader of the opposition for three years? No deal.

Has it occured to you that people have to work out the wisdom of putting the future of the country in his hands, and perhaps explore alternatives?
I'm a fcuking idiot. Clearly.