Re: This Europe Stuff Reply #15 – February 04, 2016, 02:38:39 pm Quote from: Richoriginal on February 04, 2016, 01:59:48 pmIn. Anything else is short term, backward mentalism.I'm actually undecided at the moment. This has nothing to do with immigration as I hold no truck with any claims that people actually come here to claim benefits (given that the government's own, largely suppressed, data shows that immigration actually benefits the economy). The issue for me is that the leadership of Europe has lost its way.I would have been a solid 'in' voter were it not for the treatment of Greece last year. A country that voted to reject the austerity measures proposed by the EU (the IMF is slightly less at fault here given that it has long been their contention that a large writedown of debt is necessary) was bullied and blackmailed into accepting the same measures. This had nothing to do with Greece having to take its medicine, and everything to do with the fact that German and French banks have massive loans to Greece on their books. So, it's about the Greek people bailing out the French and German banks.A further point is that the Euro is an inherently flawed concept; the fact that Greece was allowed to become so indebted was because they were able to borrow at German interest rates. Indeed, countries such as Greece, Ireland, Spain and Portugal were crying out for higher interest rates in the mid-2000s to curb overheating property markets and rising debts. Some will point to the fact that the Spanish and Irish economies are now recovering: this is true, but they are recovering from a very low base and the social upheavel caused by so many years of harsh austerity cannot be measured by GDP stats.The EU needs to reassess what its aims actually are: the concept of a united Europe which aims to maintain peace and provide a trading bloc is highly laudable. On the other hand, the Euro project and the placing of large chunks of monetary policy in the hands of the Germans is not so laudable; witness the almost complete stagnation of large parts of the Eurozone outside of Germany, France (debatable) and the Benelux countries.On the pro-side, I find it hard to side with the likes of Farage, Redwood et al, so for that reason I may well end up voting to stay in.