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Re: What's amusing me today

Reply #6780
One for the fannerati:
Quote
I love my women like I love my coffee. Imported in containers and found smashed on the floor in Tesco.


Re: What's amusing me today

Reply #6782
Quite. It's a joke. Should it not be told? Legislation?

Re: What's amusing me today

Reply #6783
I don't know if you noticed, but no one has proposed legislation banning sexist songs, however f*cking puerile, moronic, pointless, unworthy, and downright tw@ttish they are. Just a conversation about them, that's all.

But obvs that doesn't fit with your "help! I'm being oppressed!" narrative, like you're Rich B or something, so fair dos.

 

Re: What's amusing me today

Reply #6784
...
But obvs that doesn't fit with your "help! I'm being oppressed!" narrative, like you're Rich B or something, so fair dos.
 Source, or I'll just assume this made up narrative is in your imagination.

What I am doing is discussing this. What I am not getting is any response on how we implement or legislate this idea, and how it applies to other areas of society.

But you keep throwing your moron stones, if you don't have an idiot answer, and hopefully nobody apart from me will notice.


Re: What's amusing me today

Reply #6786
Source, or I'll just assume this made up narrative is in your imagination.

What I am doing is discussing this. What I am not getting is any response on how we implement or legislate this idea, and how it applies to other areas of society.

But you keep throwing your moron stones, if you don't have an idiot answer, and hopefully nobody apart from me will notice.

Why are you looking for a response, or legislation? No one has asked for that.

What has been requested is consideration of the idea that some people aren't OK with it. Which, at least on Talkback, they are getting.
They don't think it be like it is, but it do

Re: What's amusing me today

Reply #6787
Okay. So the view is that football crowds, should be held to a higher standard than the rest of society, and not be allowed to make jokes that may offend some? But there's no real conviction to enforce it, or suggestion that there's anything actually wrong (in a legal sense) with what is being done, except you don't trust the sophistication and motivation of the people singing this?

All someone of this view had to do is answer that, given it specifically was a question I asked.

We are having a debate about us all applying the values, standards, and manners, that we already do, and nobody doing anything about anything else except just generally being unhappy with how other people behave? Blimey, pop really is eating itself, isn't it?

Exactly how it has been. You’re welcome.
 
 
Not worth the paper it's written on.

I think this is a classic example of British middle class values and reserve and an inability to speak openly and manage relationships with people, getting tied up in notts knots.

It's hard to keep up. For decades this wasn't mentioned by anyone as a problem. Then it's a terrible affront for two weeks, and you are vile pseudo rapist if you even defend people's right to make sh!t jokes. Now it's been shuffled off into "i don't know what to do, please don't look at me" territory.

Yeah, great discussion.

So @jp‍  is the narrative that it's been a great opportunity to demonise ordinary people you consider beneath you? You are happy to publicly label them as abusers of women because they are prepared to make jokes that you wouldn't, but you recognise that there is no legal redress or action that can reasonably be taken without impacting badly on your actual freedom? You really don't trust the motivation of the sort of person prepared to express themselves this way, it's a bit rough and common, and you just need people to know their place and understand that they need to behave and think a lot more like you?

Re: What's amusing me today

Reply #6788
Okay. So the view is that football crowds, should be held to a higher standard than the rest of society,?

The above may be more reasonable.  I'm not saying it is, just that it may be.

Re: What's amusing me today

Reply #6789
Okay. So the view is that football crowds, should be held to a higher standard than the rest of society, and not be allowed to make jokes that may offend some? But there's no real conviction to enforce it, or suggestion that there's anything actually wrong (in a legal sense) with what is being done, except you don't trust the sophistication and motivation of the people singing this?

This is such bullsh!t. You are told repeatedly that no-one is suggesting banning this song, yet you insist someone is trying to. Complete straw man.

Why am I not up for banning this song? Precisely because banning stuff is hugely problematic and demands consent from the vast majority to legitimise it. Of course, anyone can sing what they like within the law.

But we are both old enough to remember monkey chanting at black footballers being a reasonably common, mostly ignored and *legal* "bit of fun". Black players were *offended* by it but were told to suck it up. In your argument, this was legitimate, robust, working class good humour until the moment it was legally banned. You have a lot of faith in our laws.

I suggest there is no reason, outside the law, why sexism should be more tolerated than racism and that there is no fundamental difference between "Leicester is a town full of Pakis" and "Nottingham is a town full of tits and fannies."

My view is that the tits and fannies song is degrading to women in a culture which is so fundamentally degrading to women that we find it hard to see. It's not a celebration of women, it's a diminution of them to their tits and fannies. I have held this view ever since I heard this song in the late 80s or early 90s when I was just as pompous and right on as I am now.

I am delighted that we have reached a point in our culture where a female semi-official at the club has raised this as an issue and publicly questioned its place in football culture. I am disgusted that the next time we hear this song it will be sung by many (as they have already pledged to online) as a deliberate attempt to intimidate and silence her.



Re: What's amusing me today

Reply #6790
This is such bullsh!t. You are told repeatedly that no-one is suggesting banning this song, yet you insist someone is trying to. Complete straw man.

Why am I not up for banning this song? Precisely because banning stuff is hugely problematic and demands consent from the vast majority to legitimise it. Of course, anyone can sing what they like within the law.

But we are both old enough to remember monkey chanting at black footballers being a reasonably common, mostly ignored and *legal* "bit of fun". Black players were *offended* by it but were told to suck it up. In your argument, this was legitimate, robust, working class good humour until the moment it was legally banned. You have a lot of faith in our laws.

I suggest there is no reason, outside the law, why sexism should be more tolerated than racism and that there is no fundamental difference between "Leicester is a town full of Pakis" and "Nottingham is a town full of tits and fannies."

My view is that the tits and fannies song is degrading to women in a culture which is so fundamentally degrading to women that we find it hard to see. It's not a celebration of women, it's a diminution of them to their tits and fannies. I have held this view ever since I heard this song in the late 80s or early 90s when I was just as pompous and right on as I am now.

I am delighted that we have reached a point in our culture where a female semi-official at the club has raised this as an issue and publicly questioned its place in football culture. I am disgusted that the next time we hear this song it will be sung by many (as they have already pledged to online) as a deliberate attempt to intimidate and silence her.

Fascist bully boy.

Re: What's amusing me today

Reply #6791
Again. There's a difference, in my view, between directing offence at a group as the specific point, and casual misogyny that just happens to be there in the form of expression of an entirely different point.

The point of the Nottingham is full of fun song is to celebrate a perceived superiority of Nottingham on account of forest being there.

Monkey chanting on a racial basis is not born of the same intentions, and is subject to both ground regulations and legislation.

Ground regulations will typically include clauses like this (from an actual example):

Quote
The use of threatening behaviour, foul or abusive language is strictly forbidden and will result
in arrest and/or ejection from the Ground. The Club may impose a ban for one or more
Matches.

Racial, homophobic or discriminatory abuse, chanting or harassment is strictly forbidden
and will result in arrest and/or ejection from the Ground. The Club may impose a ban for
one or more Matches.
 
If you genuinely don't see a difference between those, then I worry for you. That you have to use that hyperbolic false equivalence says everything about the quality of the case.

So we are now settled on it being nothing anyone is suggesting that we do anything about, except encouraging people to think about it - those who already are, and those who probably can't.

I will continue to use the term "tits" in my everyday life (but not sing it in a crowd), and many people will continue to think I'm a c*nt.

Order is restored.

Re: What's amusing me today

Reply #6792

Quote: "So we are now settled on it being nothing anyone is suggesting that we do anything about, except encouraging people to think about it - those who already are, and those who probably can't."

But this is all that was ever suggested - we have a debate about it. And some people might change their own minds. And it might eventually die out, perhaps more quickly than if no-one had raised the issue at all.

"Help! Help! You're being oppressed!"

Personally, I'd be keen for the club to take a stance - just a position, not a threat of any action - purely so that the issue is raised in the minds of a greater number of people.

Re: What's amusing me today

Reply #6793
I'm not feeling oppressed. (Rule one: they tend to accuse you of what they are guilty of). There were some pretty direct and dismissive statements about how disgusting and offensive it is, and how it should be banned.

I disagreed, and was interested in exploring the practicalities of that, and how it stands comparison with other songs. Then it all went a bit quiet and not much of a discussion. Just some unsubstantiated and offensive statements.

So my takeaway, rightly or wrongly, was there was a bit of a knee jerk reaction with well intentioned people keen to get on (board with) the sisters. There was also a knee jerk and abusive reaction from those offended by potentially having part of their history, identity, and culture demonised.

Neither of which camp I sit in. Both camps have been dismissive and authoritative without framing a cohesive argument and truly debating.

We really are a wallowing scumsucking degenerate intolerant society these days. Division is the name of the game. Whatever the game is.


Re: What's amusing me today

Reply #6794
There were some pretty direct and dismissive statements about how disgusting and offensive it is, and how it should be banned.

When was banning mentioned?

EDIT: This is genuinely Fake News and a big part of your argument, Tricky. Literally not one person has mentioned banning. I defy you to find even the merest suggestion of banning the song.