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Re: NFFC news thread

Reply #930
Cash, Grabban, Lolley, Adomah, Robinson, Guedioura...

Osborne, obvs.

.... Ameobi, Carvalho, Figueiredo, Worrall, Yacob, Milosevic, Darikwa, Benalouane. (I'm not counting the likes of Yates, Appiah and Walker given the relatively small number of appearances, but they could also be argued to have Championship experience.)

Perhaps more relevantly, here is the list of players who played at least 30 games in Wolves' promotion season (i.e. two thirds of it) and who had previous Championship experience:

- Matt Doherty
- Roman Saiss
- John Ruddy

Here is the list of players who played at least 30 games (i.e. two thirds) in Wolves' promotion season who were brand new to that team in the 2017-18 season, and who had no Championship experience:

- Barry Douglas
- Alfred N'Diaye
- Ivan Cavaleiro
- Diogo Jota
- Leo Bonatini
- Willy Boly
- Helder Costa

You don't need players with Championship experience to get promoted, because that's how you end up with a squad filled with the likes of Daryl Murphy and Jamie Ward. Teams full of Championship level players generally play in the Championship. You need good players to get promoted.
They don't think it be like it is, but it do

Re: NFFC news thread

Reply #931
Good thing we've got a squad full of 'good players', eh boss?

Re: NFFC news thread

Reply #932
Good thing we've got a squad full of 'good players', eh boss?

I think some of them are very good. I think some are not so good. I have no idea whether the new ones are good. I am refuting the idea that Championship experience is of any significant value when considering promotion prospects.
They don't think it be like it is, but it do

Re: NFFC news thread

Reply #933
... And you're doing that with one atypical data point?

Re: NFFC news thread

Reply #934
I'm really hoping this squad and coach are going to be significantly better than we've had in many years.


I'm not feeling it so far, but.....

Re: NFFC news thread

Reply #935
... And you're doing that with one atypical data point?

It seems like a pretty reasonable data point given a common complaint in these parts is that a Portuguese supervillain is stuffing our squad with these young players no one has ever heard of, and that's the only other data point for said supervillain having previously done so in the Championship.
They don't think it be like it is, but it do

Re: NFFC news thread

Reply #936
I can't comment on Wolves as I paid no attention and can't be bothered to look at it, but I'm intrigued how old those players new to the Championship were and how many previous appearances they had for other clubs. Our recruitment seems to be dominated by Benfica failures/youngsters represented by everyone's favourite "Portugese supervillain".
However, looking at our recent continental recruitment...
Bonatini was a disaster, Dias and Goncalves were flops, Pele (linked to Wolves for £10m last summer) and Wague hardly inspired a late promotion push. And while Carvalho was a hit with the Twitterati, I was distinctly underwhelmed, one great performance v Mboro apart. I've said several times, the less he played, the better he got in people's minds. He cost £13m, so he must be amazing. I've not seen £13m of talent yet. Hopefully, he's had 12 months to adjust, because whatever people say, the Championship is very different to Portuguese youth football.

Re: NFFC news thread

Reply #937
It seems like a pretty reasonable data point given a common complaint in these parts is that a Portuguese supervillain is stuffing our squad with these young players no one has ever heard of, and that's the only other data point for said supervillain having previously done so in the Championship.

Another data point, quite obvious, is the stuff he's been slinging our way, not much of it very good if only given one season to aclimatise.

Clearly you overlooked that.

I'd love it if we got players of the calibre of the Wolves imports but we haven't, so far. 

Re: NFFC news thread

Reply #938
I can't comment on Wolves as I paid no attention and can't be bothered to look at it, but I'm intrigued how old those players new to the Championship were and how many previous appearances they had for other clubs.

Our recruitment seems to be dominated by Benfica failures/youngsters represented by everyone's favourite "Portugese supervillain".

I'm not going to go through them all in details, but the star players for Wolves that season were really Jota (19 when he signed with Wolves, career total of 27 senior experiences for Porto), Costa (23 at the time of signing, 31 appearances on loan at Monaco and Deportivo plus 72 for Benfica B), and Neves (20 when he signed, 59 career appearances for Porto).

I'm not for a moment claiming that all these guys we're signing are to their standard. I have no idea. The model is comparable though.

Quote
However, looking at our recent continental recruitment...
Bonatini was a disaster, Dias and Goncalves were flops, Pele (linked to Wolves for £10m last summer) and Wague hardly inspired a late promotion push. And while Carvalho was a hit with the Twitterati, I was distinctly underwhelmed, one great performance v Mboro apart. I've said several times, the less he played, the better he got in people's minds. He cost £13m, so he must be amazing. I've not seen £13m of talent yet. Hopefully, he's had 12 months to adjust, because whatever people say, the Championship is very different to Portuguese youth football.

I would argue that perhaps a bigger difference was that Wolves had Espirito Santo to pull it all together. While we obviously do not, I'm also pretty sure that he didn't start the season saying "unless I have experienced Championship players we have no chance, get me Daryl Murphy", and I'm damn sure that had he had Joao Carvalho he'd have turned him into a star that season.

Championship football isn't a different sport, it's still football. The pitch is still a bit more than 100 yards long, the goals are still 8 feet high and 8 yards wide, and each team still starts with 11 men. Good players managed well win games.
They don't think it be like it is, but it do

Re: NFFC news thread

Reply #939
Another data point, quite obvious, is the stuff he's been slinging our way, not much of it very good if only given one season to aclimatise.

Clearly you overlooked that.

I'd love it if we got players of the calibre of the Wolves imports but we haven't, so far. 

Unfortunately that's not controlled for managerial style. I'm still not convinced we wouldn't have made the playoffs under Karanka, and it's entirely unfair to judge any of them on the second half of the season under a manager who would have made Barry Fry look progressive.
They don't think it be like it is, but it do

Re: NFFC news thread

Reply #940
This is good stuff.

I'm team Russ.
this is an excellent rectangle

 

Re: NFFC news thread

Reply #941
Team Russ seems to like unknowns.  There are plenty of players familiar to us which would be very helpful.

A striker for instance.  Vidja is probably available and good in the champ.  Could play as a second striker. 

I don’t see anyone capable of challenging Grabban and he is injury prone.

Some bloke from Europe who Mendes throws out there will probably fail because we will have a winter. 

I think Cardiff will biff us.


Chicago: Waiting for steel and quality.
If running is bad for your knees try hanging out with Russ and Tricky for a night.

Re: NFFC news thread

Reply #942
A striker for instance.  Vidja is probably available and good in the champ.  Could play as a second striker. 

He's been around a while. He always scores against us... do we overrate him because of that? He must be available for a reason. He's the guy you sign if your objective is to get up and build a whole new squad when you do. I'm not sure that's a great strategy. It may or may not be a better one that the 'no strategy' approach we've gone with so far.

I'm increasingly of the view that the only winning strategy in the championship is to keep firing the manager until you get one that, through luck or judgement, clicks with the club.. on and off the field. Everyone looks at inspired appointments and signings and how great everyone involved must be... but it's survivor bias, isn't it? Sure... some beat the average over medium and long terms... but think they're all mainly just hacking about in the dark looking for a break. Sure... you can improve your odds by appointing Warnock... but the price is your soul. Maybe it's the same price for dancing with Mendez.. but it's a bit more fun.

Don't get me wrong.. a mature structure around recruitment and style, and appointing coaches to work within that seems like it must be a smart thing. Going from Karanka to O'Neill to Labramoochy in the space of 6 months must be insane... but the clubs we praise for their excellent structures do change with the tide. Once it was Swansea, then it was Southampton.. is it Burnley now? Does it ever not just revert back to the mean.. back to ordering the league by pounds spent?
this is an excellent rectangle

Re: NFFC news thread

Reply #943
Don't get me wrong.. a mature structure around recruitment and style, and appointing coaches to work within that seems like it must be a smart thing. Going from Karanka to O'Neill to Labramoochy in the space of 6 months must be insane... but the clubs we praise for their excellent structures do change with the tide. Once it was Swansea, then it was Southampton.. is it Burnley now? Does it ever not just revert back to the mean.. back to ordering the league by pounds spent?

Isn't the point that each of those clubs decided on their approach and stuck with it? Whereas we throw everything up in the air and completely change our approach (to the extent that we've ever had one) every winter and most summers.

Re: NFFC news thread

Reply #944
Isn't the point that each of those clubs decided on their approach and stuck with it? Whereas we throw everything up in the air and completely change our approach (to the extent that we've ever had one) every winter and most summers.

Did it work for them because they stuck with it, or did they stick with it because they thought it worked?

Southampton sacked Adkins and appointed Pochettino. Everyone said they were mad. Now everybody thinks it was a masterstroke because hindsight is good.

Maybe the guys in charge didn’t like the nice guy Steady Eddie Unspectacular and wanted a shiny forrin Carlos Coachabloke like all the big clubs. And they got lucky because the Carlos they chose did a great job and, with more hindsight, is a top coach. His replacement did well and was poached and fell from grace at Everton. Now Southampton’s star is falling. Have they changed their structure? Or just finally run out of lucky managerial appointments and unusually players that were either home grown or bought in my the aforementioned top coach?

I think the structure argument is a good one. It makes sense. It must improve the odds of success. But I don’t know how much better it is than waiting to get lucky.
this is an excellent rectangle