Nottm Forest Forum

The Business End => The Daily Cut and Thrust => Topic started by: karlmark on February 04, 2016, 01:10:20 pm

Poll
Question: Should the UK be In or Out of Europe?
Option 1: In
Option 2: Out
Option 3: Shake it all about
Option 4: d)
Title: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on February 04, 2016, 01:10:20 pm
Instead of having to listen to racist fear-mongering from the anti-EU press and economic fear-mongering from the pro-EU side, I think we should have a legally binding vote on Talkback and ignore the next four months.

A short question with a big answer...
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Jeff on February 04, 2016, 01:12:13 pm
In - I'm slightly more concerned about the economic risks of leaving than I am racist about the prospect of being overrun by Turks.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: JimShady on February 04, 2016, 01:16:13 pm
Indeed, if only for the increase in kebab shops.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Nottingham Florist on February 04, 2016, 01:18:03 pm
I don't have the understanding  to make a nuanced economic case, but Farage and his ilk are c*nts.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: charlie on February 04, 2016, 01:20:11 pm
I'm a natural 'in' voter but must admit to having a few reservations and am undecided at the moment, although if the outers are led by Farage and Boris Johnson I'll be voting to stay. I think the polls will go up and down like a whore on ubuntu over the next few months. Another big migration over the summer could swing it for the outers.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Chicago on February 04, 2016, 01:24:34 pm


I am not anti europe per se but I have always felt that they have tried to shaft us every which way but loose.  I still miss calling Marathons Marathon and a few other things.  Also I miss gallons for some weird reason.  And the size of certain apples and trade restrictions and the like.  I wish those cnuts would just accept that British like things a certain way and would be happy to trade with them if they weren't so fcuking bolshy about everything.


Chicago: Not back yet.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: tricky on February 04, 2016, 01:25:32 pm
It's bonkers that the tw@ts in charge would even give the range of idiots, that compromise the electorate, a choice.

A collaborative Europe is essential for (relative) peace and stability, as a trading block (both internally and as a sizeable stick against far east/american protectionism plus the other advantages of market and global influence), and as a political brake on extremism (within and without).

The hard of thinking often say that as the fifth largest trading nation we could go it alone economically, without considering how much of the trade and inward investment occurs because we are the English speaking gateway to a European market.

Only a frothing at the mouth mentalist would truly think it's both viable and a good idea to leave Europe.  Unfortunately we have a lot of frothing at the mouth mentalists who will be eligible to vote.

As much as I would like to shake it all about, I fear that I will have to in, instead.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Rich B on February 04, 2016, 01:33:25 pm
Sooner be the 51st state of the USA than remain in the EC
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: tricky on February 04, 2016, 01:47:05 pm

Sooner be the 51st state of the USA than remain in the EC


Emigrating is an option.....just don't yankify the rest of us.  Apart from the language, and the odd troublesome war, I very definitely would rather be German.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Rich B on February 04, 2016, 01:59:26 pm
I'm sure that Germany is a nice place to go to now, don't let the door hit you on the way out.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Richoriginal on February 04, 2016, 01:59:48 pm
In.

Anything else is short term, backward mentalism.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Jeff on February 04, 2016, 02:03:56 pm

I'm sure that Germany is a nice place to go to now, don't let the door hit you on the way out.


The Award for "Cheap Shot That Made Me Laugh Today" goes to this entry.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: RD on February 04, 2016, 02:17:55 pm

Sooner be the 51st state of the USA than remain in the EC


I doubt the US would want us
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Rich B on February 04, 2016, 02:18:33 pm
I was speaking hypothetically.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: jp on February 04, 2016, 02:38:22 pm
I REALLY like Germany. It's a fantastic country to visit.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on February 04, 2016, 02:38:39 pm

In.

Anything else is short term, backward mentalism.


I'm actually undecided at the moment. This has nothing to do with immigration as I hold no truck with any claims that people actually come here to claim benefits (given that the government's own, largely suppressed, data shows that immigration actually benefits the economy). The issue for me is that the leadership of Europe has lost its way.

I would have been a solid 'in' voter were it not for the treatment of Greece last year. A country that voted to reject the austerity measures proposed by the EU (the IMF is slightly less at fault here given that it has long been their contention that a large writedown of debt is necessary) was bullied and blackmailed into accepting the same measures. This had nothing to do with Greece having to take its medicine, and everything to do with the fact that German and French banks have massive loans to Greece on their books. So, it's about the Greek people bailing out the French and German banks.

A further point is that the Euro is an inherently flawed concept; the fact that Greece was allowed to become so indebted was because they were able to borrow at German interest rates. Indeed, countries such as Greece, Ireland, Spain and Portugal were crying out for higher interest rates in the mid-2000s to curb overheating property markets and rising debts. Some will point to the fact that the Spanish and Irish economies are now recovering: this is true, but they are recovering from a very low base and the social upheavel caused by so many years of harsh austerity cannot be measured by GDP stats.

The EU needs to reassess what its aims actually are: the concept of a united Europe which aims to maintain peace and provide a trading bloc is highly laudable. On the other hand, the Euro project and the placing of large chunks of monetary policy in the hands of the Germans is not so laudable; witness the almost complete stagnation of large parts of the Eurozone outside of Germany, France (debatable) and the Benelux countries.

On the pro-side, I find it hard to side with the likes of Farage, Redwood et al, so for that reason I may well end up voting to stay in.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: jp on February 04, 2016, 02:40:10 pm


On the pro-side, I find it hard to side with the likes of Farage, Redwood et al and RichB, so for that reason I may well end up voting to stay in.


FTFY.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: The GasMan on February 04, 2016, 02:40:30 pm
Stay in; but deffo keep Sterling clear of the Euro!
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: tricky on February 04, 2016, 02:43:45 pm

I'm sure that Germany is a nice place to go to now, don't let the door hit you on the way out.


It is a lovely place to go, and we can go right from here without the need to have any yankee barn doors hitting us on our talking orifices as we go. That's one of the benefits of the European Union.

You were the one preferring to leave, toodle pip.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Rich B on February 04, 2016, 02:45:54 pm

It is a lovely place to go, and we can go right from here without the need to have any yankee barn doors hitting us on our talking orifices as we go. That's one of the benefits of the European Union.

You were the one preferring to leave, toodle pip.

I am quite happy to remain in England thank you very much, just don't want it governed by tw@ts in Brussels
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: tricky on February 04, 2016, 02:49:35 pm

Sooner be the 51st state of the USA than remain in the EC


Not what you said, see above. We are not governed by Europe, but you want out unless we are totally isolationist and independent...which is a whole different ball game that few who advocate it have properly thought through.

I see no evidence that you have thought it through, in case there was any ambiguity in my statement, given that you seem to have bought the bigots shorthand about being "governed by the tw@ts in Brussels".
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: jp on February 04, 2016, 02:55:07 pm
It's just same tw@ts, different name.

This is what makes me laugh about the Scottish Independence movement. Scottish politicians are no less prone to being self-interested venal f*cktards than Westminster politicians, but for independence supporters everything will certainly be better once the crappy Scottish political class have full control.

Similarly, in the context of Europe, people say they don't want to be ruled by tw@ts in Brussels, but on what basis are you judging that they do a worse job at what they do, that the Westminster politicians do at everything else?
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Rich B on February 04, 2016, 02:56:38 pm

Not what you said, see above. We are not governed by Europe, but you want out unless we are totally isolationist and independent...which is a whole different ball game that few who advocate it have properly thought through.

I see no evidence that you have thought it through, in case there was any ambiguity in my statement, given that you seem to have bought the bigots shorthand about being "governed by the tw@ts in Brussels".

I didn't say it, I wrote it - see I can be pedantic too, thought this site was totally irreverent and didn't feel I had to write an essay each post. Oh well duly chastened.

By all accounts should we exit the EC the whole of Europe will turn against us and stop trading with us leaving us bankrupt in a couple of years.

Scoff all you like and by all means call it isolationism but I would prefer to be governed from London and not anywhere else in Europe by people f*ck all to do with Britain.







Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on February 04, 2016, 02:58:04 pm

Not what you said, see above. We are not governed by Europe, but you want out unless we are totally isolationist and independent...which is a whole different ball game that few who advocate it have properly thought through.

I see no evidence that you have thought it through, in case there was any ambiguity in my statement, given that you seem to have bought the bigots shorthand about being "governed by the tw@ts in Brussels".


I think this post nicely sums up how the debate will go in the country as a whole once the date is announced.

"Don't want to be governed by Brussels"
"Too many immigrants"
"We give the EU too much money"

"Leaving will cost jobs"
"Leaving will cause a run on the Pound"
"We need the security of Europe"

Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on February 04, 2016, 03:00:51 pm

I would prefer to be governed from London and not anywhere else in Europe by people f*ck all to do with Britain.


Are we governed by Europe?
The EU certainly sets trading rules and imposes standards (Working hours, trading standards, safety standards) and also rules on whether nation laws contravene some cores (such as rights etc.). However, remaining outside of the Euro currency I don't really think that we are ruled by Europe outside of those areas unless there are other areas I have missed?
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: pantzcat on February 04, 2016, 03:23:30 pm

Are we governed by Europe?
The EU certainly sets trading rules and imposes standards (Working hours, trading standards, safety standards) and also rules on whether nation laws contravene some cores (such as rights etc.). However, remaining outside of the Euro currency I don't really think that we are ruled by Europe outside of those areas unless there are other areas I have missed?


If Chicago's post is anything to go by they get to name our chocolate bars as well, the b@stards!
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Mike B. on February 04, 2016, 03:45:42 pm
Out. The EU appears about as democratic and incorruptible as FIFA and I can't vote for a different flavour of caaaant if I don't like the ones in charge.

I think Cameron has more than one eye on future career opportunities, hence his wishy-washy attempts at compromise.

Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: tricky on February 04, 2016, 04:20:49 pm
In other news, I watched sports relief bake off last night.  Shouted 'prick' at the television more times than is healthy, and got severely criticised for my Balls induced tourettes.

Politicians are, and always have been, self-interested tw@ts. It doesn't matter where they sit, or what accent they have.

Being more comfortable with the provenance of your overlord is unlikely to compensate for increasing cost of goods, while your house value plummets, and the 'figures' tell you that all is well (because goods inflation is offset by reducing house prices).

If we fancy a bit of righteous indignation and upsetting the status quo, can't we have a dabble with republicanism, before we pick on shooting the golden goose?
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: DaveM on February 04, 2016, 05:09:29 pm
'In', and I can't believe anyone really thinks the alternative is viable
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Richoriginal on February 04, 2016, 05:33:19 pm

'In', and I can't believe anyone really thinks the alternative is viable


Blimey. DaveM and I appear to be temporarily politically aligned.

Welcome, comrade.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Vennox on February 04, 2016, 06:48:13 pm
Seems perverse to argue against being in EU because of corruption when the alternative is Westminster.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: graham on February 04, 2016, 06:51:59 pm
IN - Belgian beer costs too much over here as it is.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Dave Rave on February 04, 2016, 07:19:50 pm

IN - Belgian beer costs too much over here as it is.


Where are you buying it? Get it sent over from The House of Belgium or The Belgian Beer Factory.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Mike B. on February 04, 2016, 08:29:50 pm

Seems perverse to argue against being in EU because of corruption when the alternative is Westminster.


True, but the House of Commons is at least an elected clusterf*ckery with some kind of mandate from us mongs that put them there in the first place.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Vennox on February 04, 2016, 08:32:49 pm
And the House of Lords?

I think the UK also has MEPs as well who are elected by the British public.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Mike B. on February 04, 2016, 08:50:00 pm

And the House of Lords?

I think the UK also has MEPs as well who are elected by the British public.


I don't have a problem with the House of Lords - it's a handy safety net against opportunist policy making and acts of extreme daftness.

As far as MEP's go, aside from voting for or against policy which can be efficiently implemented regardless of the voting result, I don't see what else they offer other than having a nice jolly to talk theoretical shop. It's a bit like the House of Lords running the show, with the House of Commons getting to have some debates if that's their thing but knowing that it's largely just for show. It's probably a cushy number to be a UK MEP, especially as I imagine many people vote for whoever represents the party they usually vote for. I doubt many even know the name of their MEP or what the feck they've been up to in the last year. I suspect many of the UK MEPs have the same kind of problems.

Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Richoriginal on February 04, 2016, 09:54:50 pm

I don't have a problem with the House of Lords - it's a handy safety net against opportunist policy making and acts of extreme daftness.

As far as MEP's go, aside from voting for or against policy which can be efficiently implemented regardless of the voting result, I don't see what else they offer other than having a nice jolly to talk theoretical shop. It's a bit like the House of Lords running the show, with the House of Commons getting to have some debates if that's their thing but knowing that it's largely just for show. It's probably a cushy number to be a UK MEP, especially as I imagine many people vote for whoever represents the party they usually vote for. I doubt many even know the name of their MEP or what the feck they've been up to in the last year. I suspect many of the UK MEPs have the same kind of problems.


Ok, so lets get rid on one bunch of cronies, for another and get rid of all these benifits (http://www.proeuropa.org.uk/twelevereasons)

Sorry Mike, your argument is still really weak.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Mike B. on February 04, 2016, 10:30:35 pm
It's not an argument, Rich, it's my opinion, as is any partisan link you post. Thanks for giving me some patronising reading, though - it's a bit like leaving a bible in a handy drawer.

I won't be seething regardless of what the country decides. I'll accept it and get on with things. I worry that the referendum will go yes mostly because there won't be enough time and enough voices to balance the argument properly and I think that's what Cameron wants to just about scrape through on his 2010 bullsh!t.

Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Richoriginal on February 04, 2016, 10:39:56 pm

It's not an argument, Rich, it's my opinion, as is any partisan link you post. Thanks for giving me some patronising reading, though - it's a bit like leaving a bible in a handy drawer.

I won't be seething regardless of what the country decides. I'll accept it and get on with things. I worry that the referendum will go yes mostly because there won't be enough time and enough voices to balance the argument properly and I think that's what Cameron wants to just about scrape through on his 2010 bullsh!t.


Sorry.

Your opinion is really weak.

Better?
(And more patronising too, I hope).

I would, genuinely be interested to know though, why you think 'out' is better, beyond the simple "They're lazy and corrupt" line.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Mike B. on February 04, 2016, 11:05:04 pm

"They're lazy and corrupt"


But that's not what I said, though, is it?
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Richoriginal on February 04, 2016, 11:08:46 pm

But that's not what I said, though, is it?


A lazy generalistion on my part.

Sound similar?

Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Mike B. on February 04, 2016, 11:43:32 pm

A lazy generalistion on my part.

Sound similar?


Of course and fair enough. I do that a lot.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: JRs Cigarette on February 05, 2016, 09:09:59 am

In other news, I watched sports relief bake off last night.  Shouted 'prick' at the television more times than is healthy, and got severely criticised for my Balls induced tourettes.



It was worth putting up with him to watch Victoria Coren.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: noodlé on February 06, 2016, 01:28:45 am
my first dilemma is deciding whether or not to cast the vote to which i am entitled.. being all living in non-eu forrin, n'all that.

but i f*cking hate the eu as an institution... not because of migration or benefits that sort of stuff but because it is a massive supra-national body that has, as far as i am concerned, no democratic mandate for what it has come.

greece is a fine example of what 'it' will do when members don't do as they are told. then let's not forget making the irish re-run referendums until the proles got the right answer.

there's a huge amount to commend the singe market, and much else that's come from greater co-operation with our neighbours. the uk could lose an awful lot if it walks away. BUT.. nobody in the uk, or (as far as i know, anywhere else in the eu) ever voted to be part of a federal structure, and that's what the eu is. that's been the direction of travel for a long time.

dishface's notion of negotiating a different kind of relationship was fine on paper.. but weak in execution. there should be a genuine alternative form of membership for those countries (any) who do not want to cede sovereignty. right now it's like an abusive relationship whereby everybody has to accept unaccountable f*cktards pushing their corporatist centralised regulatory philosophies out across the continent, and politicians rough-riding over enter countries to preserve their precious (and economically illiterate) currency project, in order to be able to trade with belgians without customs getting in the way.

during the scots referendum i found myself rooting for the 'yes' camp.. because all that the 'no' camp offered as persuasion was fear. with the eu thing that seems to be all both sides have got. one lot want me to fear ruin, the other want me to fear syrians. i don't fear either of those things.

i do think that if the uk votes to leave, and everyone is grow up about it, that the uk will do fine. trade between developed nations is heading down a road where it's all free. if the eu decided to hinder the participation of the uk in post-brexit trade then that would be good evidence that it was right to leave.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Russ on February 06, 2016, 02:13:02 am
I believe I can still vote in all your sh!t including European referenda and general elections. I haven't bothered though. I don't really give a toss whether you stay in or out, it's not my problem any more. HTH.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Art on February 06, 2016, 05:05:39 am
I am waiting to see what Corbyn's position is on three referendum. And then I will take the opposite stand
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: noodlé on February 06, 2016, 07:36:08 am

I am waiting to see what Corbyn's position is on three referendum. And then I will take the opposite stand


it's a tough one for him. he's old school lefty, and they were the guys who opposed to it back in the day before any and all anti-eu talk was deemed racist (partly because a lot of it was, tbf) and 'the left' became the flag-bearers for pro-eu-dom. i expect his instinct is anti.. and, funnily enough, for good reasons (it's corporatist agenda) as well as bad (old-school union-style objection to forrins coming here and making british workers look bad by being better and cheaper). but coming out against it won't play will with large swathes of the people who voted for him (albeit it will play very well amongst those parts of the country that have been deserting labour for ukip).

i expect he'll decide that he's not sufficiently attracted to 'out' to risk alienating the rest of his parliamentary party, as well as his vocal cheerleaders amongst the young/london/twitter crowd.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: graham on February 08, 2016, 01:21:36 pm
The EU is just another step to One World Government. I'm going to form a militia and occupy Greenwich park.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: jp on February 08, 2016, 01:44:57 pm
I saw a great theory the other day from some scotnats on the internet. There's a protest camp (2 tents) outside the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish government is talking about removing it.  Apparently,  the theory goes, if the government serves an eviction notice, this triggers the possibility of a legal challenge to the 1707 Act of Union between Scotland and England.

They weren't able to say why this was the case, yet, but, y'know, the Internet,  right?
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: graham on February 08, 2016, 03:51:47 pm

I am waiting to see what Corbyn's position is on three referendum. And then I will take the opposite stand

And I looked what the hedge funds (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-hedge-fund-managers-backing-out-campaign-to-set-make-millions-from-brexit-a6708496.html) wanted, and took the opposite stand.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on February 22, 2016, 10:05:25 am
So the date has been set and all most of the media can talk about is what the chief clown is doing.
I utterly loathe Boris. He spent 24 hours agonising with his conscience as to whether fighting to stay in the EU would be better for his political career and obviously opted to go for the No camp. One might argue that he is no different from any other politician in that respect, but no current politician plays the media to the extent of BJ and very few are so vacant of principles in their pursuit of power.

Of course, anybody who attempts to use the media to their advantage to such an extent will eventually fall foul of the beast, but it doesn't alter the fact that the charlatan is managing to dominate the media cycle once again.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: AG on February 22, 2016, 10:53:27 am

So the date has been set and all most of the media can talk about is what the chief clown is doing.
I utterly loathe Boris. He spent 24 hours agonising with his conscience as to whether fighting to stay in the EU would be better for his political career and obviously opted to go for the No camp. One might argue that he is no different from any other politician in that respect, but no current politician plays the media to the extent of BJ and very few are so vacant of principles in their pursuit of power.

Of course, anybody who attempts to use the media to their advantage to such an extent will eventually fall foul of the beast, but it doesn't alter the fact that the charlatan is managing to dominate the media cycle once again.


What he said.  My position on Europe was already set as "never mind the issues, I'm on the opposite side from Nigel Farage", but if Boris had come out pro Europe I might have had to reconsider.  Not necessary now.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: RD on February 22, 2016, 11:02:04 am
It is what it is
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: jp on February 22, 2016, 11:10:29 am
It's as simple as it is.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Mike B. on February 22, 2016, 11:12:32 am
That's a bit cryptic and non-committal from the Billies.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Dave Rave on February 22, 2016, 11:35:04 am
We are where we are.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: steve on February 22, 2016, 12:04:14 pm
I'm instinctively in. There are lots of complicated elements of good and bad that make that up but on balance I remain in. The very last thing I want is a UK completely at the mercy of Cameron and even worse whichever of Osborne and Johnson follows him. They are a far bigger threat as far as I a concerned than the EU.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Simon. Not Steve or Nazimon on February 22, 2016, 06:33:30 pm

I'm instinctively in. There are lots of complicated elements of good and bad that make that up but on balance I remain in. The very last thing I want is a UK completely at the mercy of Cameron and even worse whichever of Osborne and Johnson follows him. They are a far bigger threat as far as I a concerned than the EU.



Sure but Eu membership also restricts what Corbyn could do. For example, he couldn't bail out steel/coal/cars/whatever if he decided that they were important industries that government should support. He also couldn't prevent China/France/whoever from running our energy supply and he wouldn't be able to embark on the nationalisation program that he (and many of his supporters) seems to want.

I wonder whether the 'out' campaign will be able to last 4 months without actually proposing what they would like the post 'out' world to look like. At the moment, it's uneasy coalition between 'ban immigration'; spending the next five years renegotiating a trade deal that's similar to what we already have; Boris's bizarre 'vote out to stay in with a better deal'; freer trade with the rest of the world; more restrictions on trade with the whole world; keep giving Scotland money and probably 20 other visions.

I'm in favour of staying in, basically because I don't trust our politicians to get better deals than the ones they already have or the ones that can be collectively negotiated within the EU.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Jeff on February 22, 2016, 09:14:12 pm

Boris's bizarre 'vote out to stay in with a better deal';


Boris is clearly demented and I'm at a loss as to why he gets any airtime at all, let alone why some people seem to be lining him up as a future Prime Minister.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on February 23, 2016, 07:55:38 am

Sure but Eu membership also restricts what Corbyn could do. For example, he couldn't bail out steel/coal/cars/whatever if he decided that they were important industries that government should support. He also couldn't prevent China/France/whoever from running our energy supply and he wouldn't be able to embark on the nationalisation program that he (and many of his supporters) seems to want.



The above is exactly why our relationship with the EU is so bad. If we approached it in the same way as the French or Germans then we wouldn't be facing these problems. The French in particular sign up to the EU directives and then promptly ignore them, hence why you will not find a foreign owned firm's trains running on French railways or running their utility companies. In the UK we gold plate the EU directives and make them even more onerous than needed. These are the same politicians who are supposed to be grabbing power back from Brussels. I can see a bit of inconsistency here....
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Simon. Not Steve or Nazimon on February 23, 2016, 09:15:28 am

Boris is clearly demented and I'm at a loss as to why he gets any airtime at all, let alone why some people seem to be lining him up as a future Prime Minister.


Boris Johnson has the largest personal vote in the country (admittedly that is an inevitable consequence of being London Mayor but, still, millions* of people voted for him). Regardless of his dementia, that gives him credibility.

* Actually turns out just over a million but the point still stands.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Jeff on February 23, 2016, 09:30:50 am

Boris Johnson has the largest personal vote in the country (admittedly that is an inevitable consequence of being London Mayor but, still, millions* of people voted for him). Regardless of his dementia, that gives him credibility.

* Actually turns out just over a million but the point still stands.


So basically a million cockneys can not be wrong. This does not sit well with me alone. Who am I going to vote for next time? A unprincipled buffoon or a principled Trotsky.  
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Duck for Cover on February 23, 2016, 09:33:39 am

The above is exactly why our relationship with the EU is so bad. If we approached it in the same way as the French or Germans then we wouldn't be facing these problems. The French in particular sign up to the EU directives and then promptly ignore them


This is it.  Agree to stuff and then do what we want anyway.  What are they going to do about it?  Throw us out?  As a large net contributor I really don't think so.  We have far more clout within Europe than we believe, use it.

As much as I detest the socialist Europe that the frogs and co want I think we should vote to stay in.  Once we've done that we then go about our business as we want, decide who we want to let in and when and which of their laws to agree to.  Make it work for us instead of bleating about it. 
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on February 23, 2016, 09:47:57 am

Boris Johnson has the largest personal vote in the country (admittedly that is an inevitable consequence of being London Mayor but, still, millions* of people voted for him). Regardless of his dementia, that gives him credibility.

* Actually turns out just over a million but the point still stands.


Due to our crappy voting system you could argue that Cameron gained more votes. If people didn't vote for Miliband because they didn't believe him to be a credible option then they must have voted for Cameron. Of course, some may have voted for the Tories rather than Cameron so it is impossible to find out the true number, but the point still stands.

At some point BJ will be found out for the flip-flopping charlatan that he really is; it's a hell of a leap going from Mayor of London to Prime Minister.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Simon. Not Steve or Nazimon on February 23, 2016, 10:01:00 am

Due to our crappy voting system you could argue that Cameron gained more votes. If people didn't vote for Miliband because they didn't believe him to be a credible option then they must have voted for Cameron. Of course, some may have voted for the Tories rather than Cameron so it is impossible to find out the true number, but the point still stands.


Not a personal vote though. It wasn't his name on the ballot paper (outside of Whitney(?) anyway).
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Simon. Not Steve or Nazimon on February 23, 2016, 10:11:40 am
Besides, this is surely the final word on the referendum debate: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBi-KXc0CRk
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on February 23, 2016, 11:49:34 am

Not a personal vote though. It wasn't his name on the ballot paper (outside of Whitney(?) anyway).


Yes, but how many vote for the MP as opposed to the party?
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Loafé on February 23, 2016, 01:37:00 pm

Besides, this is surely the final word on the referendum debate: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBi-KXc0CRk


Is that a comedian or a real maniac?
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Russ on February 23, 2016, 02:00:35 pm

Yes, but how many vote for the MP as opposed to the party?


Everybody does. The fact that a large proportion of people fundamentally misunderstand the basic principles of the democratic system (a massive failing of the education system, IMO) does not change the fact that they are voting for individual MPs.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: tricky on February 23, 2016, 02:12:23 pm

Everybody does. The fact that a large proportion of people fundamentally misunderstand the basic principles of the democratic system (a massive failing of the education system, IMO) does not change the fact that they are voting for individual MPs.


Correct. It's also why there is some value in the 'merican system.  If there are two houses, and one is a vote for a local representative, and the other is for a national government, it would improve on our current system.

Get some PR in there and we might even have some of this democracy of which you speak....
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Russ on February 23, 2016, 02:20:55 pm

Correct. It's also why there is some value in the 'merican system.  If there are two houses, and one is a vote for a local representative, and the other is for a national government, it would improve on our current system.

Get some PR in there and we might even have some of this democracy of which you speak....


Our new government has committed to a cross party committee to analyse alternative voting systems, and has promised that the election last year will be the last time Canadians have a government elected using FPTP - a brave move given that system gave them a landslide victory. The Conservatives are running scared because they know that FPTP is their only hope of ever regaining power, because their only power base left is rural ridings with massive geographic footprints and tiny populations that return a disproportionate number of MPs. If we move to PR or preferential voting we'll never have anything other than a centre-left government ever again, I think.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on February 23, 2016, 02:25:47 pm

Correct. It's also why there is some value in the 'merican system.  If there are two houses, and one is a vote for a local representative, and the other is for a national government, it would improve on our current system.

Get some PR in there and we might even have some of this democracy of which you speak....


Exactly. The current system means that although the cross may be placed against an individual name, the majority of people are actually voting for the party. I have no idea of the name of the candidate for whom I cast my vote in May, but I do know which party he represented.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: redeye on February 23, 2016, 02:27:31 pm
What did the EU ever do for us?
Not much, apart from: providing 57% of our trade;
structural funding to areas hit by industrial decline;
clean beaches and rivers;
cleaner air;
lead free petrol;
restrictions on landfill dumping;
a recycling culture;
cheaper mobile charges;
cheaper air travel;
improved consumer protection and food labelling;
a ban on growth hormones and other harmful food additives;
better product safety;
single market competition bringing quality improvements and better industrial performance;
break up of monopolies;
Europe-wide patent and copyright protection;
no paperwork or customs for exports throughout the single market;
price transparency and removal of commission on currency exchanges across the eurozone;
freedom to travel, live and work across Europe;
funded opportunities for young people to undertake study or work placements abroad;
access to European health services;
labour protection and enhanced social welfare;
smoke-free workplaces;
equal pay legislation;
holiday entitlement;
the right not to work more than a 48-hour week without overtime;
strongest wildlife protection in the world;
improved animal welfare in food production;
EU-funded research and industrial collaboration;
EU representation in international forums;
bloc EEA negotiation at the WTO;
EU diplomatic efforts to uphold the nuclear non-proliferation treaty;
European arrest warrant;
cross border policing to combat human trafficking, arms and drug smuggling; counter terrorism intelligence;
European civil and military co-operation in post-conflict zones in Europe and Africa;
support for democracy and human rights across Europe and beyond;
investment across Europe contributing to better living standards and educational, social and cultural capital.
All of this is nothing compared with its greatest achievements: the EU has for 60 years been the foundation of peace between European neighbours after centuries of bloodshed.
It furthermore assisted the extraordinary political, social and economic transformation of 13 former dictatorships, now EU members, since 1980.
Now the union faces major challenges brought on by neoliberal economic globalisation, and worsened by its own systemic weaknesses. It is taking measures to overcome these. We in the UK should reflect on whether our net contribution of £7bn out of total government expenditure of £695bn is good value. We must play a full part in enabling the union to be a force for good in a multi-polar global future.

Simon Sweeney,

Lecturer in international political economy, University of York
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Mike B. on February 23, 2016, 10:00:29 pm
Nice to have the professional qualifier at the end. I could have discounted much of it if he hadn't been a lecturer - my type of alumni.

Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Seven on February 23, 2016, 10:11:56 pm
The EU has MADE HEALTH AND SAFETY GO MAD, MADE THE ROADS BUSY AND GIVEN PEOPLE HUMAN RIGHTS.

Try and counter that Simon Sweeney.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Mike B. on February 23, 2016, 10:26:57 pm
I shall advise the out campaign thus. Do you mind if we keep the capitalisation or have you bagged it for yourself? I agree that it's important to raise one's voice at Johnny F. when we can't quite make ourselves understood.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Simon. Not Steve or Nazimon on February 24, 2016, 09:24:38 am
Mr Sweeney makes some interesting points but:

All of these could have been achieved by trade agreements:

Not much, apart from: providing 57% of our trade;
single market competition bringing quality improvements and better industrial performance;
Europe-wide patent and copyright protection;
no paperwork or customs for exports throughout the single market
price transparency and removal of commission on currency exchanges across the eurozone;
access to European health services;
freedom to travel, live and work across Europe;
cheaper mobile charges;
cheaper air travel;


These could have been done by the British government using the money that's paid into the EU (we are, after all, net contributors):

structural funding to areas hit by industrial decline;
funded opportunities for young people to undertake study or work placements abroad


These could have been done by the British legislature (arguably easier). The question is whether we actually want these imposed on us or would prefer to decide them for ourselves:

lead free petrol;
clean beaches and rivers;
restrictions on landfill dumping;
a recycling culture;
improved consumer protection and food labelling;
a ban on growth hormones and other harmful food additives;
better product safety;
break up of monopolies;
labour protection and enhanced social welfare;
smoke-free workplaces;
equal pay legislation;(equal pay act was 1970, so pre-dates the UK entry to EU)
holiday entitlement;
the right not to work more than a 48-hour week without overtime;
strongest wildlife protection in the world;
improved animal welfare in food production;


Which leaves:
EU-funded research and industrial collaboration;
EU representation in international forums;
bloc EEA negotiation at the WTO;
EU diplomatic efforts to uphold the nuclear non-proliferation treaty;


Where arguably our interests are blended into a supposed common European interest

And
cleaner air;
European arrest warrant;
cross border policing to combat human trafficking, arms and drug smuggling; counter terrorism intelligence;


Which seem like things that would be part of international agreements

And
European civil and military co-operation in post-conflict zones in Europe and Africa;
support for democracy and human rights across Europe and beyond;
investment across Europe contributing to better living standards and educational, social and cultural capital.
It furthermore assisted the extraordinary political, social and economic transformation of 13 former dictatorships, now EU members, since 1980.


I think we can agree that block EU involvement in foreign affairs has not been an unmixed blessing. Libya, the former Yugoslavia and Ukraine are, I'm sure, not terribly grateful for their involvement.

Also is this:
All of this is nothing compared with its greatest achievements: the EU has for 60 years been the foundation of peace between European neighbours after centuries of bloodshed.

a threat?
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Andyp on February 24, 2016, 09:47:36 am

Mr Sweeney makes some interesting points but:

All of these could have been achieved by trade agreements:

Not much, apart from: providing 57% of our trade;
single market competition bringing quality improvements and better industrial performance;
Europe-wide patent and copyright protection;
no paperwork or customs for exports throughout the single market
price transparency and removal of commission on currency exchanges across the eurozone;
access to European health services;
freedom to travel, live and work across Europe;
cheaper mobile charges;
cheaper air travel;


These could have been done by the British government using the money that's paid into the EU (we are, after all, net contributors):

structural funding to areas hit by industrial decline;
funded opportunities for young people to undertake study or work placements abroad


These could have been done by the British legislature (arguably easier). The question is whether we actually want these imposed on us or would prefer to decide them for ourselves:

lead free petrol;
clean beaches and rivers;
restrictions on landfill dumping;
a recycling culture;
improved consumer protection and food labelling;
a ban on growth hormones and other harmful food additives;
better product safety;
break up of monopolies;
labour protection and enhanced social welfare;
smoke-free workplaces;
equal pay legislation;(equal pay act was 1970, so pre-dates the UK entry to EU)
holiday entitlement;
the right not to work more than a 48-hour week without overtime;
strongest wildlife protection in the world;
improved animal welfare in food production;


Which leaves:
EU-funded research and industrial collaboration;
EU representation in international forums;
bloc EEA negotiation at the WTO;
EU diplomatic efforts to uphold the nuclear non-proliferation treaty;


Where arguably our interests are blended into a supposed common European interest

And
cleaner air;
European arrest warrant;
cross border policing to combat human trafficking, arms and drug smuggling; counter terrorism intelligence;


Which seem like things that would be part of international agreements

And
European civil and military co-operation in post-conflict zones in Europe and Africa;
support for democracy and human rights across Europe and beyond;
investment across Europe contributing to better living standards and educational, social and cultural capital.
It furthermore assisted the extraordinary political, social and economic transformation of 13 former dictatorships, now EU members, since 1980.


I think we can agree that block EU involvement in foreign affairs has not been an unmixed blessing. Libya, the former Yugoslavia and Ukraine are, I'm sure, not terribly grateful for their involvement.

Also is this:
All of this is nothing compared with its greatest achievements: the EU has for 60 years been the foundation of peace between European neighbours after centuries of bloodshed.

a threat?


Strange argument. Yes theoretically all could have been achieved outside the EU but chances are only a few of them would have been as the EU sets up conditions in which co-operation can flourish. And how can an academic at the University of York threaten anyone? If you are going to argue for leaving the EU then I suggest you come up with some serious negatives to being members which doesn't rely on 'them' telling us what shape our sausages have to be etc to counter the obvious advantages.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: jp on February 24, 2016, 09:50:29 am
That.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Loafé on February 24, 2016, 10:07:17 am
I don't want to leave because 'they' might make me change my avatar and it took me a while.

This is one of those pointless debates really. It is such a complex set of variables that everyone* is just going to vote based on gut instinct.

*99% of the public
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Simon. Not Steve or Nazimon on February 24, 2016, 10:13:11 am

Strange argument. Yes theoretically all could have been achieved outside the EU but chances are only a few of them would have been as the EU sets up conditions in which co-operation can flourish. And how can an academic at the University of York threaten anyone? If you are going to argue for leaving the EU then I suggest you come up with some serious negatives to being members which doesn't rely on 'them' telling us what shape our sausages have to be etc to counter the obvious advantages.


Hey, I'm in favour of staying in because I still think the positives outweigh the negatives but a lot of the arguments in favour amount to 'look at the these things Europe has funded', which is bollocks when we are net contributors and things that would come from a trade agreement that didn't have the political element this one does.

I think the 'out' side talk a lot of crap as well, because countries that are outside the EU but are part of the same trade agreement (like Norway and Switzerland) are massive net contributors as well, don't have any input into the rules and are mostly part of Shengen. Also, are they proposing to set up proper borders with Ireland? That'd have interesting repercussions in Northern Ireland.

The threat thing was a joke. Obviously. But we managed to avoid war with Germany and France between 1945 and 1973 without being in the EU and I don't think leaving will mean that war is inevitable, which is what his point seems to imply. And, while we've had peace in Western Europe for the last 60 years - much of the rest of Europe hasn't been as fortunate. Countries that trade a lot with each other don't tend to go to war as well is what's going on - the EU is a mechanism that helps that trade but it's far from the only one.

How do you feel about TTIP? If we are in Europe, that is inevitable. Now, I tend to think free trade is good thing but I see lots of scare stories about how it'll be the end of the NHS and that we'll be forced into an American health system after it goes through.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: steve on February 24, 2016, 10:56:17 am

How do you feel about TTIP? If we are in Europe, that is inevitable. Now, I tend to think free trade is good thing but I see lots of scare stories about how it'll be the end of the NHS and that we'll be forced into an American health system after it goes through.


I think TTIP is an absolute disaster and should be fought in any way possible but the Tories would still happily hand us over to corporate control without the EU and they are happily dismantling the NHS themselves as it is.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Simon. Not Steve or Nazimon on February 24, 2016, 11:29:39 am

I think TTIP is an absolute disaster and should be fought in any way possible but the Tories would still happily hand us over to corporate control without the EU and they are happily dismantling the NHS themselves as it is.



But if that's important to you, shouldn't you be doing everything in your power to get us out of Europe and then to get a Corbyn government asap?

Every general election I can remember (let's say starting with '87), the Labour party has run on 'vote us or the Tories will kill the NHS'. And yet, despite the Tories being in some form of power after 3 of those 6 elections (not counting the last one), it's still, fundamentally there and they've never felt the need to go with 'vote for us, the Tories have killed the NHS'. Ultimately, it's a 'boy who cried wolf' situation.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: charlie on March 04, 2016, 12:49:15 pm
Really interesting stuff from Tim Marshall (well respected ex Sky editor) on the Daily Politics today, about the 'perfect storm' facing Europe in coming months. Basically saying that Europe is shifting markedly to the right anyway and that its failure to manage the migrant crisis will lead to some pretty shocking footage on TV in the months running up to the referendum, with this turning many towards the 'out' camp. Very impressive reasoning from Marshall and I recommend that you catch it if it's on iplayer.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Andyp on March 04, 2016, 01:53:11 pm

Really interesting stuff from Tim Marshall (well respected ex Sky editor) on the Daily Politics today, about the 'perfect storm' facing Europe in coming months. Basically saying that Europe is shifting markedly to the right anyway and that its failure to manage the migrant crisis will lead to some pretty shocking footage on TV in the months running up to the referendum, with this turning many towards the 'out' camp. Very impressive reasoning from Marshall and I recommend that you catch it if it's on iplayer.


The answer to the possibility of Europe turning markedly to the right is not to leave Europe but campaign against the right and for a more socialist Europe. It is the same argument as that the SNP tried to use to get the left to vote for it. It doesn't work because it strengthens the nationalists(zenophobes) like UKIP. I would advise studying the lead up to WW2 as to where that can lead. I would hazard a guess that Mr Marshall might be in favour of rather less regulation and workers rights and a move to the US model given his previous employer. Looking at the US it is apparent that quite a large proportion of the population there are not happy with the status quo. I hope they choose wisely as well.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Simon. Not Steve or Nazimon on March 04, 2016, 02:08:37 pm
I'm not sure what Europe could do about the migrant crisis anyway. Invade Syria and enforce a stable government? Provide massive military support to Assad? No-one wants either of those.

Shooting or torpedoing people attempting to cross the Med isn't going to down well.

People living in sh!tty places where they are probably going to die soon will always want to move to less sh!tty places and if that means waiting by some razor wire in Macedonia or in a camp in Calais for a bit while hoping a border opens up or another option presents itself that's not much of a disincentive.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Simon. Not Steve or Nazimon on April 14, 2016, 03:35:07 pm
I see Corbyn has decided that he is in favour of Europe (eventually) to prevent the government getting rid of regulations. Which suggests he doesn't rate his chances of actually opposing them successfully or being elected next time around.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Vennox on April 14, 2016, 04:15:44 pm

I see Corbyn has decided that he is in favour of Europe (eventually) to prevent the government getting rid of regulations. Which suggests he doesn't rate his chances of actually opposing them successfully or being elected next time around.

Or staying in power indefinately.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: noodlé on April 15, 2016, 11:03:49 am

What did the EU ever do for us?

snippy snip snip



because countries not in the EU, presumably, don't have any of these things?

do you know what *does* only happen in the eu, though? the impoverishment of entire nations in order to save german and french banks, and a currency project that was deeply flawed from it's very inception... because better than than anyone puts a dent in 'the project', right?

the exit campaign may well be mainly comprised of dribbling racist tossbuckets.. but the stay campaign seems to be built around fear and the assumption that without the magical guiding hand of brussels we'd all be wallowing in our own filth because british people are uniquely too stupid to do anything good off our own backs.

if the uk only has nice things because europe made us, then that rather suggests that the british people didn't really want those nice things, and would have rejected any politicians proposing them. well fine.. but if so then that's our (well, your) goddamn democratic right. vote leave, kids, and you can live in a pit full of poo and no belgian c*nt can do anything about it.

i still don't know how to vote. it's like liverpool vs manyoo.. whatever happens, a bunch of absolute grade-A thunderc*nts will be disgustingly pleased about it.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Russ on April 15, 2016, 02:11:25 pm
I keep getting notified that I'm eligible to vote in this as long as I register to do so. Not only have I no interest in doing so, it seems patently unfair that expats with no intention to return should have any say in the matter. Are expats more inclined to one side or the other?
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: graham on April 15, 2016, 03:13:18 pm

because countries not in the EU, presumably, don't have any of these things?

do you know what *does* only happen in the eu, though? the impoverishment of entire nations in order to save german and french banks, and a currency project that was deeply flawed from it's very inception... because better than than anyone puts a dent in 'the project', right?

the exit campaign may well be mainly comprised of dribbling racist tossbuckets.. but the stay campaign seems to be built around fear and the assumption that without the magical guiding hand of brussels we'd all be wallowing in our own filth because british people are uniquely too stupid to do anything good off our own backs.

if the uk only has nice things because europe made us, then that rather suggests that the british people didn't really want those nice things, and would have rejected any politicians proposing them. well fine.. but if so then that's our (well, your) goddamn democratic right. vote leave, kids, and you can live in a pit full of poo and no belgian c*nt can do anything about it.

i still don't know how to vote. it's like liverpool vs manyoo.. whatever happens, a bunch of absolute grade-A thunderc*nts will be disgustingly pleased about it.


As you (almost) say, we've got our approach to the EU just about right. We aren't in the doomed single currency and we don't participate in the borders and visas aspect of Schengen. I can't see the appeal of leaving, unless you're a xenophobe, a spiv looking to short sterling, or just somebody who wants to become Tory leader by mopping up the green biro vote.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: steve on April 15, 2016, 03:18:14 pm
I'm not convinced that our membership or otherwise of the EU is the key factor in the crises that are likely to lie ahead. But by nature I lean towards unity, whether it's the UK or Europe, and will almost certainly go that way in the vote.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Simon. Not Steve or Nazimon on April 15, 2016, 03:23:48 pm

I keep getting notified that I'm eligible to vote in this as long as I register to do so. Not only have I no interest in doing so, it seems patently unfair that expats with no intention to return should have any say in the matter. Are expats more inclined to one side or the other?


Not sure anyone has polled them specifically. You'd think that people who choose to live in Europe, in particular, would notice that being in the EU makes that easier. But then you remember the retired "egg and chips, Pedro" brigade in Spain and think that might not be the case.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Lessred on April 15, 2016, 03:34:01 pm
I imagine it depends on where they are expatting
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Vennox on April 15, 2016, 06:35:22 pm
I'd regard staying as the sensible option but dont feel strongly about it enough to look in to registering to vote.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: noodlé on April 15, 2016, 10:51:36 pm

I keep getting notified that I'm eligible to vote in this as long as I register to do so. Not only have I no interest in doing so, it seems patently unfair that expats with no intention to return should have any say in the matter. Are expats more inclined to one side or the other?


yeah, but intent to return is a personal thing, and unverifiable by the electoral folk. if we accept that expats who *do* intend to return should be allowed a vote (seems fair) then there's no way to avoid giving it to expats who don't.

for a while i thought that my mum wouldn't get a vote.. she's lived in the uk for 40-odd years, but is legally an irish. however, apparently that's not the case as there's some kind of residency qualification.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: noodlé on April 15, 2016, 11:04:38 pm

As you (almost) say, we've got our approach to the EU just about right. We aren't in the doomed single currency and we don't participate in the borders and visas aspect of Schengen. I can't see the appeal of leaving, unless you're a xenophobe, a spiv looking to short sterling, or just somebody who wants to become Tory leader by mopping up the green biro vote.


how about not wanting to be in the club that did the euro thing, and is forcing it on any new members? i know it's not what you actually think.. but there's a a sniff of 'we're alright jack' about your comment on us having our membership about right.

i agree, there are a couple of key areas where we've eased ourselves along a different trajectory along the path to 'ever closer union'. and that's good. but if we're accepting that we are happy to be in 'a' european union, but it's demonstrably not the one that other countries, and the eu institutions themselves, are heading towards.. then isn't that a reason to leave? let the eu become what it wants to be, and let those of us (and it's not just the uk) who want the co-operation.. but without the political and economic union.. do something else?

tbh, i think that the actual electorates around the eu are probably as much inclined to ease back on the development of the union as those in the uk. which is why nobody is asking their opinion and lots of people are very angry that we are being asked ours. if the eu hit the pause button and went out to find out what the people of europe actually want it to do (and, crucially, not do) then voting to stay would require a lot less nose-holding.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: DaveM on April 17, 2016, 01:40:44 pm
lots of talk about Obama suggesting we should stay in europe and some quarters (the leave people) saying this is hypocritical as the US wouldn't stand for it themselves etc...

But surely, the US is a 'united states', with a lot of law, tax etc decided by each state and the central government can overrule with the supreme court etc. In some ways, although defined as a collection of countries rather than states, wouldn't Europe be seen as closer to a 'united states' model in the first place? Just with less over-arching power?

Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: tricky on April 17, 2016, 02:01:42 pm

lots of talk about Obama suggesting we should stay in europe and some quarters (the leave people) saying this is hypocritical as the US wouldn't stand for it themselves etc...

But surely, the US is a 'united states', with a lot of law, tax etc decided by each state and the central government can overrule with the supreme court etc. In some ways, although defined as a collection of countries rather than states, wouldn't Europe be seen as closer to a 'united states' model in the first place? Just with less over-arching power?


Yes.

That's the big point about a unified Europe, from a trade and influence perspective. Collaborating together as a 'unified states of Europe' then Europe as a whole can be a comparable size market to the USA, Russia/Eastern Bloc (non-EU), and China.  Which means it has comparable influence.

To think that the UK outside of this block of European power and influence (not to mention market clout) could ultimately prosper against such blocks of political and trade power is quite simply ridiculous.  We lack the natural resources, cost base, manufacturing, and infrastructure, to be anything but overpowered by them. In the EU, collaborating with the likes of the germans (California, or Shenzen, a-likey..if you get the metaphor), we can bring our history of global trading (Hong Kong a-likey) and carve a healthy piece of the cake. If we are no longer the English speaking, and historical trading, gateway to the European market then why would all that trade and investment be coming to these shores? What do we have that they want? Not our home market alone, or our pokey overcrowded houses, that's for sure.

Answer: we don't really have much of anything else unique, and eventually the trade wouldn't come any more.

In my view.

USA want an English speaking close partner in Europe, so that Europe and the USA can stand up against Russia and China, and keep Europe western biased......there are dangers to the USA if it loses that partner and sees Europes affiliation move elsewhere......we are a key partner to maintain global balance.  If we are not any more, they'll f*ck us off without a thought.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Nottingham Florist on April 17, 2016, 02:21:39 pm
But we are Nottingham Forest Great Britain, the famous team country.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: jp on April 17, 2016, 02:24:22 pm
I agree with much of that (Tricky's post).

I also agree with what this cheese-eating surrender monkey is saying, as an example of how little importance the UK would have in the world if it left the EU (even though he is hardly impartial on these things):

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/apr/17/britain-killed-in-trade-talks-eu-french-minister-emmanuel-macron


The quote in that article from Chris Grayling, on a related issue to DaveM's post....

"Chris Grayling, the leader of the House of Commons, who supports a British exit, said Obama did not understand the nature of the pooling of sovereignty among EU member states. He said: “I don’t for a moment think that President Obama would tolerate a situation where the US gave away as much of its sovereignty as we have to Brussels. It is inconceivable. In my view, he perhaps doesn’t understand the nature of the transfer of power that has taken place. I can only think he doesn’t realise.”"

..shows just how dim Chris Grayling is. 
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: jp on April 17, 2016, 02:25:04 pm

But we are Nottingham Forest Great Britain, the famous team country.


My country/the sports team from my area is better than your country/the sports team from your area.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: noodlé on April 20, 2016, 05:40:50 am

Answer: we don't really have much of anything else unique, and eventually the trade wouldn't come any more.


i agree that being part of a europe-sized trading block is a good thing, for reasons you've given. that last bit is bollocks, though.

we have a (if not *the*) global centre for financial and legal services. our creative industries are world class, our private and higher education institutions are major global draws, and we excel in a whole suite of the niche things... from whiskey to advanced automotive engineering ... that mean the British economy has remained a global giant in spite of the decline of the great industries of yesteryear.

brexit would impact some or all of these things, obviously. maybe for worse.. maybe for better (the eu does keep trying to cut the legs off 'the city', after all... so with respect to our biggest export, financial services, there will be challenges whichever way the vote goes).

the uk has an awful lot going for it... which the rest of the world knows, even if the uk itself doesn't.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: charlie on May 25, 2016, 12:02:03 pm
Less than a month to go now, so time to bounce this back up.

Just enjoyed watching the Daily Politics team verbally destroy Matt Hancock from the remain campaign. Like many, I am f*cking sick of all the negative campaigning and scare stories - most but not all from the remain lot. It actually makes me want to vote leave, just to give Cameron and Osborne and their establishment toadies a bloody nose. Silly perhaps, but true.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: tricky on May 25, 2016, 12:08:08 pm
This is a potential problem.

None the less, the scare stories might not be totally unreasonable. I've lost a job and a business in part because multi-national car companies stopped using us as a supplier while there was uncertainty about our status as an access point to the European market, and subject to it's standards and objectives.

Certainly it is no more reasonable to say that everything will be fine, and we will go from strength to strength unencumbered by European shackles. Much of our trade and inward investment is preciously because of this, and could easily stop.

If it's all about the economy stupid, then even having a referendum has been a hugely damaging and dampening factor on business and investment.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Simon. Not Steve or Nazimon on May 25, 2016, 12:10:37 pm

Less than a month to go now, so time to bounce this back up.

Just enjoyed watching the Daily Politics team verbally destroy Matt Hancock from the remain campaign. Like many, I am f*cking sick of all the negative campaigning and scare stories - most but not all from the remain lot. It actually makes me want to vote leave, just to give Cameron and Osborne and their establishment toadies a bloody nose. Silly perhaps, but true.


Both sides love a scare story though. Leave's favourites are - look at all those asylum seekers, 72m Turks will join and move in next week, we'll be forced to join the euro, a Euro army, euro-police, we always get voted down, they steal our fish etc etc
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Seven on May 25, 2016, 12:13:12 pm

Less than a month to go now, so time to bounce this back up.

Just enjoyed watching the Daily Politics team verbally destroy Matt Hancock from the remain campaign. Like many, I am f*cking sick of all the negative campaigning and scare stories - most but not all from the remain lot. It actually makes me want to vote leave, just to give Cameron and Osborne and their establishment toadies a bloody nose. Silly perhaps, but true.


I'm not aiming this at you but it does make me laugh that the Brexit Tories are sniping at the remain campaign and calling it negative and scaremongering, but were more than happy to use this Lynton Crosby tactic to win the last election.

I also think it's inevitable that prices will rise for people, too many people in business are saying so for it to be ignored.

I'm probably in the remain camp, as revolting as Cameron et al are they are much less revolting than Farage, Johnson, Gove et al.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: charlie on May 25, 2016, 12:14:09 pm



If it's all about the economy stupid, then even having a referendum has been a hugely damaging and dampening factor on business and investment.


Agree with that. I think that if the leave lot are smart, there's a good mileage in the sovereignty, independence, control angle. Especially if they say things like "we love Europe, we love Europeans, but we don't like the EU as it now is" and "we don't want to stop immigration, we want to be in control of immigration". These are the arguments that will appeal to the non-xenophobes in the centre... the people that they must reach and convince. The xenophobes will vote out anyway.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: tricky on May 25, 2016, 12:45:52 pm
I think the philosophical argument, on both sides, is the only one that can make any sense. Nobody can truly predict the long term outcome of either course....though in the short term it's hard to see how a withdrawal from Europe could be anything other than a high expense and reduction of investment, in the short term.  At least in until any trade deals are negotiated...assuming they could be...and assuming we have anything to trade on those terms that people would actually want (bear in mind most multi-national manufacturing industries, will no longer be able to sell into Europe from the UK, so they will all see a price increase, or move elsewhere...and europe will no doubt make funds available to certain economic zones for them to do so.....out membership of europe ensures we are on an equal competitive footing with them, and they cannot undercut us...leave, and all bets are off..).

So, are you isolationist, and wishing to withdraw from a wider free world to be able to control your own little broom closet, or are you prepared to accept the crunchy with the smooth and work for a more integrated collaborative free world, despite some undoubted structural problems?
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Mike B. on May 25, 2016, 01:24:27 pm
I'm all for a united Europe but not this corrupt model that only serves those with a ticket for the gravy train (upgrades available once aboard). The only way to sort it out is to start afresh. Leave and wait for others to follow – and they will, I'm sure. Whilst we wait we can focus our attention on those corrupt morons we keep foolishly sending off to Westminster in our name.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: tricky on May 25, 2016, 01:31:05 pm

I'm all for a united Europe but not this corrupt model that only serves those with a ticket for the gravy train (upgrades available once aboard). The only way to sort it out is to start afresh. Leave and wait for others to follow – and they will, I'm sure. Whilst we wait we can focus our attention on those corrupt morons we keep foolishly sending off to Westminster in our name.


I understand the sentiment, but I think that the presumption that you will be doing anything other than swapping one group with corrupt self-interest, for another the same, is naive. That is the way of the world.

It's easy to point at the flaws of any system, but the change management in introducing a new system is not trivial, nor any less susceptible to flaw.... and it doesn't always improve things overall, but it always costs.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Mike B. on May 25, 2016, 01:43:09 pm

I understand the sentiment, but I think that the presumption that you will be doing anything other than swapping one group with corrupt self-interest, for another the same, is naive. That is the way of the world.

It's easy to point at the flaws of any system, but the change management in introducing a new system is not trivial, nor any less susceptible to flaw.... and it doesn't always improve things overall, but it always costs.


Yes, of course. It wasn't my intention to trivialise the solution - just to point out the bleeding obvious once again, for anyone still choking on the sentiment of cute pictures of children on the TV or worrying too much about all these new Johnny Foreigners that will be taking those children's jobs. The real answer is probably somewhere in the middle ground, but Europe is quite clearly f*cked beyond belief as it stands.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: DaveM on May 25, 2016, 01:48:03 pm
My worry is that the 'leave' voters will be significantly more motivated on polling day than the 'stay' voters.

I'm in the 'stay' camp by the way

The cost of withdrawal will be huge, and will take many, many years to reach any kind of equilibrium. In the meantime, we have all sorts of unpredictable variables affecting our economy.

I'm not saying that some of the bureaucratic nonsense doesn't need to be reformed. But that's another story.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Simon. Not Steve or Nazimon on May 25, 2016, 02:07:21 pm

My worry is that the 'leave' voters will be significantly more motivated on polling day than the 'stay' voters.

I'm in the 'stay' camp by the way

The cost of withdrawal will be huge, and will take many, many years to reach any kind of equilibrium. In the meantime, we have all sorts of unpredictable variables affecting our economy.

I'm not saying that some of the bureaucratic nonsense doesn't need to be reformed. But that's another story.


That's about my position - also worth pointing out the the demographic for 'leave' skews older than remain and that means they are much more likely to vote, even if you ignore that people who want to leave seem more energised (and therefore likely to vote) than those reasonably content with the current situation.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: The GasMan on May 25, 2016, 03:15:43 pm
Anything that distances us fine folk from those Euro Krauts, Spics & Frogs is fine by me.
Vote out!
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Rich B on May 25, 2016, 03:16:31 pm
OUT

That is all
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Nottingham Florist on May 25, 2016, 03:34:51 pm

I don't have the understanding  to make a nuanced economic case, but Farage and his ilk are c*nts.


Rich B makes my point for me.

Not that he's a c*nt (obvs) but that in 99% of circumstances on here I disagree with him.

Leave is the vote for old, bitter, undereducated pessimists (surveys show). I am surprised that Remain haven't made more of that fact: identity politics and all that.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: charlie on May 25, 2016, 03:36:13 pm



I'm probably in the remain camp, as revolting as Cameron et al are they are much less revolting than Farage, Johnson, Gove et al.


I reckon that each camp is almost exactly as revolting as the other. They may have some likeable people somewhere, but if so I haven't seen them.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Simon. Not Steve or Nazimon on May 25, 2016, 03:39:49 pm

I reckon that each camp is almost exactly as revolting as the other. They may have some likeable people somewhere, but if so I haven't seen them.


Eddie Izzard? If you are talking about politicians, how many UK politicians do you find likeable? If you can name any, I'd say it's almost certain they are on the side of stay.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Nottingham Florist on May 25, 2016, 03:43:34 pm

I reckon that each camp is almost exactly as revolting as the other. They may have some likeable people somewhere, but if so I haven't seen them.


This is the "they're all as bad as each other" argument, which I don't buy.

Gordon Brown, Ken Clarke, Merkel and Obama might be c*nts, but they are not c*nts of the same magnitude as Farage, Boris, Putin and Trump.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Nottingham Florist on May 25, 2016, 03:45:27 pm

Eddie Izzard?


Luvvie c*nt...

Someone told me I looked like Eddie Izzard this week. I wasn't even wearing lipstick.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: tricky on May 25, 2016, 03:47:42 pm

Luvvie c*nt...

Someone told me I looked like Eddie Izzard this week. I wasn't even wearing lipstick.


Perhaps you share his taste in frocks?
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Rich B on May 25, 2016, 03:49:59 pm

Rich B makes my point for me.

Not that he's a c*nt (obvs) but that in 99% of circumstances on here I disagree with him.

Leave is the vote for old, bitter, undereducated pessimists (surveys show). I am surprised that Remain haven't made more of that fact: identity politics and all that.


Happy to have gotten under your skin - mission accomplished.

I have the old quaint idea of being governed by an elected government and if we don't like this one we can always vote them out at the requisite time. We do not, and never will have this luxury with unelected and corrupt politicians from overseas - remind me, when were their accounts last signed off?





Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: dunc on May 25, 2016, 03:58:58 pm

Happy to have gotten under your skin - mission accomplished.

I have the old quaint idea of being governed by an elected government and if we don't like this one we can always vote them out at the requisite time.


Like the House of Lords, presumably.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Seven on May 25, 2016, 04:00:14 pm

Happy to have gotten under your skin - mission accomplished.

I have the old quaint idea of being governed by an elected government and if we don't like this one we can always vote them out at the requisite time. We do not, and never will have this luxury with unelected and corrupt politicians from overseas - remind me, when were their accounts last signed off?


Well that's a nice idea but with the current government reducing the number of seats and changing the boundaries to benefit them, not to mention the electoral fraud currently under investigation, it's unlikely they will get voted out.

It's the EU being able to keep tabs on them that also makes my vote likely to go to remain.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: tricky on May 25, 2016, 04:01:24 pm

Happy to have gotten under your skin - mission accomplished.

I have the old quaint idea of being governed by an elected government and if we don't like this one we can always vote them out at the requisite time. We do not, and never will have this luxury with unelected and corrupt politicians from overseas - remind me, when were their accounts last signed off?


Do you honestly believe you are governed by an elected government?

We are, thank heavens, governed by the civil service.  The 'elected representatives' (who are neither representative of the vote share, nor often of their constituents - it's an inherent dilemma of collective government responsibility and also representing the constituency, and in my view a case for a house of representatives and an executive body) just fiddle about with the window dressing to give some shallow differentiation to the electorate, who are on the whole not politically, economically, or socially (in the bigger sense) sophisticated.

I have very grave concerns about letting the posturing idiots set about the garden under the window box with a JCB.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Rich B on May 25, 2016, 04:05:21 pm

Well that's a nice idea but with the current government reducing the number of seats and changing the boundaries to benefit them, not to mention the electoral fraud currently under investigation, it's unlikely they will get voted out.

It's the EU being able to keep tabs on them that also makes my vote likely to go to remain.

If the Government pisses enough people off then they get voted out, simple enough concept.

Corbyn is enough to keep them in
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: redeye on May 25, 2016, 04:06:40 pm

I have the old quaint idea of being governed by an elected government and if we don't like this one we can always vote them out at the requisite time. We do not, and never will have this luxury with unelected and corrupt politicians from overseas - remind me, when were their accounts last signed off?


We can only vote ou lot out when the media tells us to. The general population only believes what it reads.

And these unelected and corrupt politicians from overseas - did you not notice these European elections that have been going on for decades? the problem that needs to be addressed with them is that they are often elected on domestic issues.

And corrupt? You don't think our politicians are corrupt? I couldn't give a dam whether it is Cameron, Blair, Brown, Osbourne, Clegg, or some Johnny Foreigner running the country, they are all as corrupt as eachother. If you want to be angry at something, be angry at the so called "democracy" we have in Britain.

In or out, I couldn't care less. Go to work, do my job, come home, buy sh!t. Try not to let them c*nts affect me.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: dunc on May 25, 2016, 04:08:59 pm
One view from across the pond... (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/britain-flirts-with-economic-insanity/2016/05/01/bb8d7a4a-0e1f-11e6-bfa1-4efa856caf2a_story.html?hpid=hp_no-name_opinion-card-a:homepage/story)
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Rich B on May 25, 2016, 04:11:55 pm

One view from across the pond... (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/britain-flirts-with-economic-insanity/2016/05/01/bb8d7a4a-0e1f-11e6-bfa1-4efa856caf2a_story.html?hpid=hp_no-name_opinion-card-a:homepage/story)


When the yanks agree to being ruled from Canada then they can chirp in, otherwise they can f*ck off.

They fought us to have their independence a couple of centuries ago so why shouldn't we have ours?
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: dunc on May 25, 2016, 04:16:14 pm
I for one don't give a fcuk about all that. It's more interesting to read the views of people that don't have an axe to grind or aren't emotionally involved. Objectivity and all that.

I think the bit in the article about independence and, as a result, our own standing in the world is fairly key:

"Ironically, leaving the E.U. would confirm the U.K.’s reduced status. The U.K. would have to renegotiate its trading agreements with the E.U. and dozens of other countries. A deal with the E.U. is essential. For the U.K., the best outcome would be to retain much of its preferential access, which — as a practical matter — would mean continuing contributions to the E.U. budget and abiding by most E.U. regulations. The status quo would survive, except that the U.K. would have no influence over E.U. policies. Anything less than this would have the E.U. putting its own members at a competitive disadvantage.

Viewed this way, Brexit is an absurdity. But it is a potentially destructive absurdity. It creates more uncertainty in a world awash in uncertainty."
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Rich B on May 25, 2016, 04:22:28 pm
According to the Remain crew, if we exit:

40 billion a year loss
820000 jobs gone
Houses devalued
No one will buy from us
No one will sell us anything
WW III is imminent as well as a war with Russia


Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Seven on May 25, 2016, 04:30:29 pm
And the Brexit campaign says we will all get blown up and 70 million Turks are going to move here.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Rich B on May 25, 2016, 04:34:59 pm

And the Brexit campaign says we will all get blown up and 70 million Turks are going to move here.


Did you see program on the East End last night?
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Simon. Not Steve or Nazimon on May 25, 2016, 04:40:42 pm

When the yanks agree to being ruled from Canada then they can chirp in, otherwise they can f*ck off.

They fought us to have their independence a couple of centuries ago so why shouldn't we have ours?


Well, they are already in NAFTA with Canada and Mexico and that allows for disputes to be resolved externally, they are signed up to the UN, with the external rules that applies. And all of their individual states are signed up to rule from the centre with no right to leave (attempting to leave is literally a declaration of war), even though California is 4/5 of the size of England with a similar GDP.

We, of course, aren't ruled by Europe - we are a member of the group that sets the rules. We get the same say as everyone else, according to the rules we agreed on representation.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Simon. Not Steve or Nazimon on May 25, 2016, 05:05:15 pm

And the Brexit campaign says we will all get blown up and 70 million Turks are going to move here.


The Turkey stuff would be funny if it wasn't so ridiculous. Every existing member gets a veto over new members. If we don't want them to join, we can stop them from joining. And, even if our government of the day didn't, I'm going to guess that Cyprus and Greece aren't going to accept them any time soon.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Nottingham Florist on May 25, 2016, 05:14:43 pm


I have the old quaint idea of being governed by an elected government and if we don't like this one we can always vote them out at the requisite time. We do not, and never will have this luxury with unelected and corrupt politicians from overseas - remind me, when were their accounts last signed off?


It's the best argument for Leave. Works from a left wing point of view.

Not so much from the right when c*nts like Boris and Gove are happy to keep our own unelected politicians in place.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: DaveM on May 25, 2016, 05:15:47 pm

When the yanks agree to being ruled from Canada then they can chirp in, otherwise they can f*ck off.

They fought us to have their independence a couple of centuries ago so why shouldn't we have ours?


The US is in no way comparable to the UK.  It is actually far closer to the EU model, it being a collection of states with their own law-making powers, but with overall governance being placed centrally.

The equivalent situation would be if a state such as New England decided it didn't want to be part of the US anymore, and instead wanted to go it alone with trade deals with Europe, China and Australia. Imagine how daft that would sound
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Simon. Not Steve or Nazimon on May 25, 2016, 05:20:03 pm

Well that's a nice idea but with the current government reducing the number of seats and changing the boundaries to benefit them, not to mention the electoral fraud currently under investigation, it's unlikely they will get voted out.

It's the EU being able to keep tabs on them that also makes my vote likely to go to remain.


The boundary commission decides boundaries not the government. Reduction in the number of seats shouldn't have any overall impact. English voters not wanting the SNP or Jeremy Corbyn in government will do.

The electoral "fraud" (which seems to be mostly accounting travel expenses to the centre, rather than constituencies) is something all sides have been guilty of.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Vennox on May 25, 2016, 05:46:28 pm
I wouldn't be surprised if a vote to leave doesn't end in the UK leaving anyway. They'll use it as a lever to negotiate a better treaty and put the question again and again until the good British public come up with the right answer.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: JimShady on May 25, 2016, 06:03:48 pm
This whole 'unelected' thing - don't we elect EU officials too? I thought we did.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Simon. Not Steve or Nazimon on May 25, 2016, 06:20:16 pm

This whole 'unelected' thing - don't we elect EU officials too? I thought we did.


We elect members of the European Parliament - the legislature, our nationally elected policians choose the commission - the executive.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: JimShady on May 25, 2016, 06:24:45 pm
So either directly, or indirectly, they're elected by us.

The position that we're 'being governed by an unelected body in Brussels's' doesn't seem to add up.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: tricky on May 25, 2016, 06:39:10 pm

So either directly, or indirectly, they're elected by us.

The position that we're 'being governed by an unelected body in Brussels's' doesn't seem to add up.


I think you'll find the position is more "I don't like decisions being taken that I don't like". People are generally more than happy to have decisions made for them, as long as they agree with them. The fact that British elected representatives do more of this than jonny foreigner might also be an issue, but there is a greater good that we benefit from.

We might just find out how much, and that scares the sh!t out of me.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Andyp on May 25, 2016, 06:41:56 pm

So either directly, or indirectly, they're elected by us.

The position that we're 'being governed by an unelected body in Brussels's' doesn't seem to add up.


Are you surprised given the people expounding this viewpoint?
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Simon. Not Steve or Nazimon on May 25, 2016, 06:48:59 pm

So either directly, or indirectly, they're elected by us.

The position that we're 'being governed by an unelected body in Brussels's' doesn't seem to add up.


Sounds scary though doesn't it? #ProjectFear
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Nottingham Florist on May 25, 2016, 07:13:16 pm

So either directly, or indirectly, they're elected by us.


Indirectly elected by us. Or, as it's sometimes known, unelected by us. Or anyone.

The other meaning of "unelected by us", of course, is that some of these politicians are elected by Germans or Greeks (i.e. Not "us.")



Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: DaveM on May 25, 2016, 08:24:44 pm

We elect members of the European Parliament - the legislature, our nationally elected policians choose the commission - the executive.


And we f*ck that up. UKIP have a fairly sizeable presence in the European Parliament but rather than show up to protect/fight-for Britains interests, they mostly don't bother and instead go around the UK campaigning against Europe.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Seven on May 25, 2016, 08:29:00 pm

The boundary commission decides boundaries not the government. Reduction in the number of seats shouldn't have any overall impact. English voters not wanting the SNP or Jeremy Corbyn in government will do.

The electoral "fraud" (which seems to be mostly accounting travel expenses to the centre, rather than constituencies) is something all sides have been guilty of.


It was the government who have implemented the cut knowing full well it would benefit them. I'm quite sure they'd have been aware of the independent boundary commissions changes prior to this.

The government has allegedly overspent on the last election in marginal seats, this is electoral fraud. Since then the electoral commission have had to get a court order to get the relevant documents as the Tories would not hand them over. I wonder why? The rules are there to prevent the buying of elections, as far as I can see Labour, SNP, UKIP or the Lib Dems are not being investigated for such matters.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Simon. Not Steve or Nazimon on May 25, 2016, 09:36:39 pm

It was the government who have implemented the cut knowing full well it would benefit them. I'm quite sure they'd have been aware of the independent boundary commissions changes prior to this.

The government has allegedly overspent on the last election in marginal seats, this is electoral fraud. Since then the electoral commission have had to get a court order to get the relevant documents as the Tories would not hand them over. I wonder why? The rules are there to prevent the buying of elections, as far as I can see Labour, SNP, UKIP or the Lib Dems are not being investigated for such matters.


The U.K. has a ridiculous number of MPs, so cutting them was overdue. Scotland had a dispropotionate number where the Tories don't have many, so any cut was likely to favour them, and rightly so. Just because you don't like the outcome doesn't make it unfair or unjust. Gerrymandering is drawing the boundaries to your advantage - no suggestion of that that I can see.

As for election expenses, we'll see what the outcome is. But you can be sure there won't be another election.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Jeff on May 26, 2016, 07:22:29 am
Is this still going on. We'll stay in, not sure what all the fuss is about. Status Quo always triumphs.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: jp on May 26, 2016, 07:49:37 am
Rockin' all over the world!
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Simon. Not Steve or Nazimon on May 26, 2016, 07:54:14 am
You're in the (European) Army Now.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Jüânfrân on May 26, 2016, 08:16:13 am

Scotland had a dispropotionate number where the Tories don't have many, so any cut was likely to favour them, and rightly so. Just because you don't like the outcome doesn't make it unfair or unjust.


Eh? Fixing the system to suit your own ends isn't unjust?
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Seven on May 26, 2016, 08:30:30 am

The U.K. has a ridiculous number of MPs, so cutting them was overdue. Scotland had a dispropotionate number where the Tories don't have many, so any cut was likely to favour them, and rightly so. Just because you don't like the outcome doesn't make it unfair or unjust. Gerrymandering is drawing the boundaries to your advantage - no suggestion of that that I can see.

As for election expenses, we'll see what the outcome is. But you can be sure there won't be another election.


It's the bigger picture, they are rigging it.

If they were serious about electoral reform they would be looking at a more representative parliament. They are more than happy with the FPTP system as it benefits them.

They have also drafted the Trade Union bill to basically stop the funding of the opposition. They aren't doing this for any other reason than it will benefit them. They also want to reduce the funding to opposition parties, again, and theirs a theme here, to benefit them.

Of course their won't be another election, I'm sure there are enough influential people making the decisions that matter to them but well done to C4 for bringing it to the mainstream media. I'm sure the knives will be out for them even more now.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: steve on May 26, 2016, 08:38:25 am

Eh? Fixing the system to suit your own ends isn't unjust?


I think you are conflating his points, which are actually separate things.

1) Scotland has disproportionately more MPs therefore are likely to lose proportionally more.

2) The Tories don't have Scottish seats to lose so they as a result benefit from that change, or you could argue are penalised by the current disproportionate number of seats in Scotland.

Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Simon. Not Steve or Nazimon on May 26, 2016, 08:53:08 am

I think you are conflating his points, which are actually separate things.

1) Scotland has disproportionately more MPs therefore are likely to lose proportionally more.

2) The Tories don't have Scottish seats to lose so they as a result benefit from that change, or you could argue are penalised by the current disproportionate number of seats in Scotland.




That was about it.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: JRs Cigarette on May 26, 2016, 08:55:09 am

Did you see program on the East End last night?


Eastenders?
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Simon. Not Steve or Nazimon on May 26, 2016, 09:03:03 am

It's the bigger picture, they are rigging it.

If they were serious about electoral reform they would be looking at a more representative parliament. They are more than happy with the FPTP system as it benefits them.

They have also drafted the Trade Union bill to basically stop the funding of the opposition. They aren't doing this for any other reason than it will benefit them. They also want to reduce the funding to opposition parties, again, and theirs a theme here, to benefit them.

Of course their won't be another election, I'm sure there are enough influential people making the decisions that matter to them but well done to C4 for bringing it to the mainstream media. I'm sure the knives will be out for them even more now.


We had a referendum on electoral reform - "we" voted against it. Are you really saying that the government should act against the stated will of the people and its own interest? FPTP is unfair but the Scotland's over-representation is a different, also unfair, situation and it's legitimate to fix one without the other, under the current circumstances. And 650 MPs is far too many - that's more than the US congress (435) and senate (100) combined.

On the Trade union bill - is it really unreasonable to ask people before giving their money to a political party rather than having a passive subscription? Yeah it harms Labour and when Labour were in power they capped contributions (also rightly, imv) which disproportionately harmed the Tories.

Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Jeff on May 26, 2016, 10:01:03 am

Eastenders?


School boy error there, EastEnders is Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, Friday. They give you a day off on Wednesdays.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Simon. Not Steve or Nazimon on May 26, 2016, 03:45:41 pm

It was the government who have implemented the cut knowing full well it would benefit them. I'm quite sure they'd have been aware of the independent boundary commissions changes prior to this.

The government has allegedly overspent on the last election in marginal seats, this is electoral fraud. Since then the electoral commission have had to get a court order to get the relevant documents as the Tories would not hand them over. I wonder why? The rules are there to prevent the buying of elections, as far as I can see Labour, SNP, UKIP or the Lib Dems are not being investigated for such matters.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-36366980

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/16/labour-facing-questions-over-election-expenses/

http://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/Devon-Somerset-Lib-Dem-MPs-caught-election/story-29318011-detail/story.html

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/673102/SNP-election-spending-Nicola-Sturgeon-scandal
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Seven on May 26, 2016, 04:14:06 pm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-36366980

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/16/labour-facing-questions-over-election-expenses/

http://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/Devon-Somerset-Lib-Dem-MPs-caught-election/story-29318011-detail/story.html

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/673102/SNP-election-spending-Nicola-Sturgeon-scandal


Fair enough but it does seem a bit of a case of mud slinging because they are in the sh!t.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: tricky on May 26, 2016, 04:19:24 pm

Fair enough but it does seem a bit of a case of mud slinging because they are in the sh!t.


If you've been around a while you will notice that it tends to crop up with every long term government (most of whom are in the sh!t because long term governments tend to be).  The electoral commission review things periodically, because things change (happened under Blair, thatcher, et al  as far as I remember).  That's not unreasonable....you often find these things benefit the sitting government.  They're all as bad as each other in that.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Vennox on May 26, 2016, 04:20:37 pm

Fair enough but it does seem a bit of a case of mud slinging because they are in the sh!t.

More likely to be sh!t slinging, Shirley?
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Seven on May 26, 2016, 04:22:57 pm

We had a referendum on electoral reform - "we" voted against it. Are you really saying that the government should act against the stated will of the people and its own interest? FPTP is unfair but the Scotland's over-representation is a different, also unfair, situation and it's legitimate to fix one without the other, under the current circumstances. And 650 MPs is far too many - that's more than the US congress (435) and senate (100) combined.

On the Trade union bill - is it really unreasonable to ask people before giving their money to a political party rather than having a passive subscription? Yeah it harms Labour and when Labour were in power they capped contributions (also rightly, imv) which disproportionately harmed the Tories.


All im suggesting is that the government are rigging it so it's less likely they will get kicked out of power.

They are strangling the funding of the opposition (not just labour) and making it harder for an opposition majority by implementing boundary changes that will benefit them.

They are not doing it because they are nice and care where people's subscriptions or tax payers money goes but are doing it for their own self serving corruption.

And on a side point I think it's perfectly legitimate for the unions to do what they want with their members money. If I pay for something then I don't chose how they recipient spends the money, if I don't like where the money goes then I won't pay for it.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Vennox on May 26, 2016, 04:30:01 pm
But if you pay a mechanic to repair your car you might be upset if they saved money by fitting used spares and spent their savings on crack and whores.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: tricky on May 26, 2016, 04:33:07 pm

But if you pay a mechanic to repair your car you might be upset if they saved money by fitting used spares and spent their savings on crack and whores.


As far as I can tell that's normal practice.  Cars come out of garages more likely to break than when they went in.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Simon. Not Steve or Nazimon on May 27, 2016, 08:00:10 am

All im suggesting is that the government are rigging it so it's less likely they will get kicked out of power.

They are strangling the funding of the opposition (not just labour) and making it harder for an opposition majority by implementing boundary changes that will benefit them.

They are not doing it because they are nice and care where people's subscriptions or tax payers money goes but are doing it for their own self serving corruption.

And on a side point I think it's perfectly legitimate for the unions to do what they want with their members money. If I pay for something then I don't chose how they recipient spends the money, if I don't like where the money goes then I won't pay for it.


The right thing is still the right thing regardless of whether some of the motives are self-interest. I'm far more interested in actions and outcomes than the motives behind them.

On the funding thing - I'm probably in favour of state funding of political parties and highly restricted funding beyond that but that's never going to happen. On the unions, I think it's arguable either way but, having thought about it a bit more, I may have changed my mind - now that we no longer have closed shops (thanks to Thatch and Europe!), I guess that individuals that don't want to pay to Labour can always join or form a union that doesn't.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: redeye on May 27, 2016, 03:46:51 pm
It doesn't matter who is in power (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJ4SSvVbhLw)

Be them a Brit, a European, right wing, left wing, centrist cock sucker, it doesn't matter, they're still raping your sorry arse.

I voted once, in the mid 2000s, for the Socialist Unity Coalition. They didn't get in and my vote counted for nothing. My voice never heard, and never will be heard. f*ck politics, f*ck democracy, I don't need the illusion. Secretly, I hope for an economic collapse, then people can only afford to buy food, and people stop buying sh!t, and people start to realise what life is again.

So I'm for bankruptcy of Nottingham Forest, so that we can start again with real football, and economic failure of the country. Next up, I'll get the wife to chop my dick off.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: tricky on May 27, 2016, 03:56:53 pm
Your voice was heard. It's just that the majority decided that you are a knob. DIY surgery seems the appropriate course of action.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: DaveM on May 27, 2016, 03:58:35 pm

It doesn't matter who is in power (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJ4SSvVbhLw)

Be them a Brit, a European, right wing, left wing, centrist cock sucker, it doesn't matter, they're still raping your sorry arse.

I voted once, in the mid 2000s, for the Socialist Unity Coalition. They didn't get in and my vote counted for nothing. My voice never heard, and never will be heard. f*ck politics, f*ck democracy, I don't need the illusion. Secretly, I hope for an economic collapse, then people can only afford to buy food, and people stop buying sh!t, and people start to realise what life is again.

So I'm for bankruptcy of Nottingham Forest, so that we can start again with real football, and economic failure of the country. Next up, I'll get the wife to chop my dick off.


Good move. Please continue not to vote.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: The GasMan on May 27, 2016, 06:04:58 pm
You also got a hankering for a zombie apocalypse in there somewhere, BossEye?
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: RC on May 27, 2016, 08:46:04 pm

You also got a hankering for a zombie apocalypse in there somewhere, BossEye?


You rang?
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: DaveM on June 08, 2016, 04:07:35 pm
Well I hope that now everyone has had time to get all their 'not really' racist, immigration-bashing feelings vented over recent weeks, all the Team-Gove flags are being put back in the kitchen drawer and slowly but surely rationality is returning and we are all ready to vote to remain in the EU come the 23rd?
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Richoriginal on June 08, 2016, 04:22:07 pm

Well I hope that now everyone has had time to get all their 'not really' racist, immigration-bashing feelings vented over recent weeks, all the Team-Gove flags are being put back in the kitchen drawer and slowly but surely rationality is returning and we are all ready to vote to remain in the EU come the 23rd?


Let's hope so commrade Dave.

Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: tricky on June 08, 2016, 04:30:46 pm
The only reason we are having this deeply divisive referendum, that is causing huge economic damage in itself, is because the tory party is so deeply riven over the countries role in europe that it has to offer this idiotic choice to placate their moron tendency.

Any semblance of true leadership allied to a total lack of care for the countries best interests, must all bow down to let the tory party run their own catastrophic soap opera, it seems.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: RD on June 08, 2016, 05:44:52 pm
All seems to be a lot of fuss

If you're elderly, racist or a farmer you're voting out. Anyone else who can be arsed is voting in.

Tory party is divided. Labour has already divided. Lib Dems have disappeared.

There'll soon be a power vacuum which means time to Tricky to step up. He's been running this board of c*nts for years, should easily manage a country full of them.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: tricky on June 08, 2016, 05:52:46 pm
I am brilliant at running things*.

* Other people generally disagree.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: DaveM on June 08, 2016, 06:02:39 pm
At least some of these politicians will stand up for their belief and not run along party lines - including the Lib Dem leader and numerous Labour Party folk including Sid Kahn. Of course Corbin is scurrying around in the background still playing political games, but then I wouldn't expect anything more from him.

You know what...I don't give a f*ck who says what, or what 'side' they are on, as long as the nation votes to remain on the 23rd. If that happens, all of this is just benign noise.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Seven on June 08, 2016, 06:35:43 pm

At least some of these politicians will stand up for their belief and not run along party lines - including the Lib Dem leader and numerous Labour Party folk including Sid Kahn. Of course Corbin is scurrying around in the background still playing political games, but then I wouldn't expect anything more from him.

You know what...I don't give a f*ck who says what, or what 'side' they are on, as long as the nation votes to remain on the 23rd. If that happens, all of this is just benign noise.


I presume you mean Corbyn is playing games by him still challenging Cameron?

I can't blame him after the flack/abuse Labour got for standing with the Tories in the Scotland referendum.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Mike B. on June 08, 2016, 08:47:57 pm
I'm still awaiting the europiphany that DaveM thinks I'm due. I'm not unreceptive, but my hearing isn't what it used to be and these bloody foreigners can't be trusted to tend the harvest unsupervised.

Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: DaveM on June 08, 2016, 10:42:28 pm
No political statement here. But this woman has the most relaxing voice I've heard for a while....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36485464
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: donnyred on June 09, 2016, 07:05:31 am
I voted out (postal vote), my mind was made up yesterday when my Nephew went for a job at a Nottingham Company and was told by a Polish Speaking woman that only Polish people can be employed there. I thought we had discrimination laws. Obviously under the EEC they don't apply to white British.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Deano on June 09, 2016, 07:25:13 am
So they would only employ black Polish people?
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Andyp on June 09, 2016, 08:43:05 am

I voted out (postal vote), my mind was made up yesterday when my Nephew went for a job at a Nottingham Company and was told by a Polish Speaking woman that only Polish people can be employed there. I thought we had discrimination laws. Obviously under the EEC they don't apply to white British.


Of course leaving the EU is going to stop discrimination happening. The thing about the law is that some people break it and you can take action against them by going to the authorities.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: JRs Cigarette on June 09, 2016, 09:01:01 am

I voted out (postal vote), my mind was made up yesterday when my Nephew went for a job at a Nottingham Company and was told by a Polish Speaking woman that only Polish people can be employed there. I thought we had discrimination laws. Obviously under the EEC they don't apply to white British.


Is your nephen from Doncaster too?

Sure she didn't say 'polished' people?
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Richoriginal on June 09, 2016, 09:02:08 am

I voted out (postal vote), my mind was made up yesterday when my Nephew went for a job at a Nottingham Company and was told by a Polish Speaking woman that only Polish people can be employed there. I thought we had discrimination laws. Obviously under the EEC they don't apply to white British.


Was he applying for a job at the Polish Translators Society (Doncaster branch)?
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Richoriginal on June 09, 2016, 09:04:25 am

I'm still awaiting the europiphany that DaveM thinks I'm due. I'm not unreceptive, but my hearing isn't what it used to be and these bloody foreigners can't be trusted to tend the harvest unsupervised.


How's your eyesight doing?

You might find this interesting. Or not. (http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexitvote/2016/05/27/dear-friends-this-is-why-i-will-vote-remain-in-the-referendum/)
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: DaveM on June 09, 2016, 09:55:28 am

I voted out (postal vote), my mind was made up yesterday when my Nephew went for a job at a Nottingham Company and was told by a Polish Speaking woman that only Polish people can be employed there. I thought we had discrimination laws. Obviously under the EEC they don't apply to white British.


And this is my worry. People end up voting leave, and potentially plunging us into a deep and long recession, due to some trivial issue which has bugger all to do with the EU
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: JRs Cigarette on June 09, 2016, 10:01:58 am

And this is my worry. People end up voting leave, and potentially plunging us into a deep and long recession, due to some trivial issue which has bugger all to do with the EU


Indeed, which is why a referendum is a bad idea for anything that matters.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: noodlé on June 09, 2016, 10:46:03 am

The only reason we are having this deeply divisive referendum, that is causing huge economic damage in itself, is because the tory party is so deeply riven over the countries role in europe that it has to offer this idiotic choice to placate their moron tendency.

Any semblance of true leadership allied to a total lack of care for the countries best interests, must all bow down to let the tory party run their own catastrophic soap opera, it seems.


i dunno.

i expect both 'in' and 'out' will garner more votes than any political party has managed since at least 1997. whilst the tories are the ones who've given us the vote, only labour and the nationalists (lolz) were opposed to it happening.. so whatever has made cameron do it, there's no doubt that there is public interest and a mandate for it to happen.

i would much prefer a debate about (and vote upon) what the EU should be. i am 100% certain that most of the citizenry of the continent would like it to wind it's neck in and tone down the federalism. the best impact of a brexit might well be that the EU does stop and seriously consider what it is for and what democratic mandate it has. it could be great.. but too late for the uk.

there's no right answer here. so if my voting papers ever arrive then i'm probably going to abstain.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: DaveM on June 09, 2016, 12:20:57 pm
Exactly. The EU is far from perfect and needs to change.

But we need to be involved with the change. Not on the outside looking in.

The thing that stuns me is that there is even a hint of a decision to be made. Leaving Europe would create massive uncertainty, economic shock - would likely cost thousand of jobs and livelihoods and would take a decade or more to even get vaguely stable. With the upside of....being able to stop some 'foreigners' from coming over here to work.

Remaining in the EU is a no-brainer. I'm amazed that leave campaigners are keeping a straight face.

Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Russ on June 09, 2016, 12:33:27 pm

I voted out (postal vote), my mind was made up yesterday when my Nephew went for a job at a Nottingham Company and was told by a Polish Speaking woman that only Polish people can be employed there.


I'll take "Things that really actually happened, honest" for $400 please, Alex.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: tricky on June 09, 2016, 12:51:42 pm
Some of the arguments are so fallacious it's (they are) untrue.

We need to stop immigration because immigrants are a drain on the health service.  This slightly overlooks the fact that the health service would be in absolute crisis without the immigrant workers and healthcare professionals.

The only way that coming out of the EU is going to solve the immigration crisis, is if it ruins the economy and nobody wants to come.  It may well work.

The only guarantee is that there will be huge short to mid term damage to the economy if we leave Europe. There has been substantial damage as a result of the uncertainty provided by the referendum. Now you may argue that 'we' would do better afterwards. 'We' might. Although my personal hopes are not high for a generally aging, underskilled, overpriced, workforce, without recourse to vast natural resources or cost competitive skilled labour.

Europe is undoubtedly in a bit of a mess, but it's less of a mess than going it alone on it's doorstep would be. If we actually embraced Europe and led within it, we might find ourselves right at the top table, instead of having to piss in our own shoes to keep our feet warm.

What this whole sorry debacle shows, whatever the outcome, is how totally bereft of leadership and vision we appear to be.  The whole political class just appears to be playing musical chairs to get themselves a seat, without a care for what song is playing.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: garf on June 09, 2016, 12:52:14 pm

I voted out (postal vote), my mind was made up yesterday when my Nephew went for a job at a Nottingham Company and was told by a Polish Speaking woman that only Polish people can be employed there. I thought we had discrimination laws. Obviously under the EEC they don't apply to white British.


And your first thought wasn't; so why did they waste their time interviewing you?

I call bullsh!t.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Nottingham Florist on June 09, 2016, 02:07:37 pm

I voted out (postal vote)


It'll probably get lost in the post.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Nottingham Florist on June 09, 2016, 02:09:44 pm
My Nephew went for a job at a Nottingham Company and was told by a Polish Speaking woman that only Polish people can be employed there. I thought we had discrimination laws. Obviously under the EEC they don't apply to white British.


We do have anti-discrimination laws. They do apply to white British people. So, if this happened, she was breaking the law.

Now, what's that got to do with the referendum?
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: tricky on June 09, 2016, 02:17:08 pm

We do have anti-discrimination laws. They do apply to white British people. So, if this happened, she was breaking the law.

Now, what's that got to do with the referendum?


You don't understand.  If we come out of Europe donny's lazy nephew, and his like, wont have a cheap excuse for why they can't get a job. Apart from there not being any jobs any more, when our economy collapses.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: steve on June 09, 2016, 02:32:17 pm
The problem is that this sort of nonsense is what will decide the referendum. Democracy sounds like such a good idea until you see who takes part.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Simon. Not Steve or Nazimon on June 09, 2016, 03:05:40 pm

Exactly. The EU is far from perfect and needs to change.

But we need to be involved with the change. Not on the outside looking in.

The thing that stuns me is that there is even a hint of a decision to be made. Leaving Europe would create massive uncertainty, economic shock - would likely cost thousand of jobs and livelihoods and would take a decade or more to even get vaguely stable. With the upside of....being able to stop some 'foreigners' from coming over here to work.

Remaining in the EU is a no-brainer. I'm amazed that leave campaigners are keeping a straight face.




But there are people either prepared to put up with that ecomomic shock in return for increased sovereignty and, especially, control over immigration; don't understand* that that is by far the most likely outcome or think that not paying the £350m a week that we don't pay to the EU will make up for it.


* see reports that some younger voters were in favour of exit because they were told house prices would drop. Rather ignoring that that would be because of the increase in unemployment and interest rates.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: JRs Cigarette on June 09, 2016, 03:24:12 pm
And this is the worst sort of issue to have a referendum on because no-one understands/knows what might happen with either result.

The problem with the £350m quoted is twofold; one it's a gross figure and the net amount is much smaller; two, it seems like a f*ckload of money to most people who dream of winning £1m on the lottery and indeed it is a lot of money in that sense, but in a global economic sense it's the small change down the back of the sofa.  But most people don't/won't see either of those points.

Anyway, I want to hear more from Donny on the discrimination action his nephew is pursuing.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: RD on June 09, 2016, 03:39:54 pm

And your first thought wasn't; so why did they waste their time interviewing you?


His full name is Donny Nephewlowski so you can understand their error
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: DaveM on June 09, 2016, 04:08:04 pm

And this is the worst sort of issue to have a referendum on because no-one understands/knows what might happen with either result.

The problem with the £350m quoted is twofold; one it's a gross figure and the net amount is much smaller;


Yes, most (including the leave campaign themselves) ignore the rebate, which means we pay about half that, And that money is not just thrown down a bottomless pit - we do actually see benefits by way of subsidies etc.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: tricky on June 09, 2016, 04:15:08 pm
It appears to be the leave campaign headline figure....which I really struggle to understand, given that it's so easily demonstrated to be grossly misleading. If we lost 2% of GDP, which I believe that we easily could, then it would hardly be a significant figure in economic terms.

Imagine we leave, and stop being the English speaking gateway to the EU, and the RoI step up into the breech?  How long before Northern Ireland want to join the republic? How long before Scotchland want to declare independence from us and stay in Europe?

Absolutely the last thing I want is to be overwhelmelmed by a higher pecentage of south-east-obssessed-faux-cockerney-b@stards.  At least Brussels declare the odd northern place as an economic wilderness and send us some grants.  Those southern b@stards wont even send us a coach party.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Jeff on June 09, 2016, 04:32:29 pm

Absolutely the last thing I want is to be overwhelmelmed by a higher pecentage of south-east-obssessed-faux-cockerney-b@stards.  At least Brussels declare the odd northern place as an economic wilderness and send us some grants.  Those southern b@stards wont even send us a coach party.


Finally. Well done on this good piece of sense.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: donnyred on June 09, 2016, 05:12:49 pm
This isn't Bullsh!t and he wasn't interviewed, he was told by the Polish HR agent that they only employed people from a Polish background. For the record he is taking it further.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: RD on June 09, 2016, 05:31:34 pm

This isn't Bullsh!t and he wasn't interviewed, he was told by the Polish HR agent that they only employed people from a Polish background. For the record he is taking it further.


Why didn't he lie and say his mum was Polish?

I'd say he failed the initiative test for the job.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: DaveM on June 09, 2016, 06:03:15 pm

This isn't Bullsh!t and he wasn't interviewed, he was told by the Polish HR agent that they only employed people from a Polish background. For the record he is taking it further.


May I ask what the actual job was?
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: JimShady on June 09, 2016, 06:32:55 pm
Polish/English interpreter I presume.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Nottingham Florist on June 09, 2016, 06:35:41 pm

This isn't Bullsh!t and he wasn't interviewed, he was told by the Polish HR agent that they only employed people from a Polish background. For the record he is taking it further.


Why is he taking it further if under the EEC the discrimination laws don't apply to white British?
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Simon. Not Steve or Nazimon on June 09, 2016, 06:47:15 pm

It appears to be the leave campaign headline figure....which I really struggle to understand, given that it's so easily demonstrated to be grossly misleading. If we lost 2% of GDP, which I believe that we easily could, then it would hardly be a significant figure in economic terms.



Not sure if this is sarcasm but the reason that, of the three figures they could use, they use 350m a day is because it's the biggest and they don't care about being misleading if it helps their cause. It is bizarre when 250m (the actual, non rebated, gross figure) is also pretty big as is the 160m after payments made to us.

Of course the current deficit is 1.8 billion a week, so the idea that money could be spent more wisely or on the NHS or cutting tax on fuel is, frankly, bollocks.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Mangetout on June 09, 2016, 07:06:08 pm
(http://static.fjcdn.com/pictures/Tumblr_102456_5432855.png)
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Richoriginal on June 09, 2016, 07:32:07 pm

Polish/English interpreter I presume.


ahem (http://talkback.trentend.com/index.php?topic=974.msg82508#msg82508)
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Seven on June 09, 2016, 07:34:16 pm
I think that Donnys nephew should go on one of the TV debates and get all shouty about it to get cheers from the leave camp.

I also think he should have worked harder at school and then he wouldn't have been after a job at local car wash.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: jp on June 09, 2016, 08:00:14 pm
It was  a Polish deli, wasn't it? Or the Polish consulate.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: RD on June 09, 2016, 09:23:28 pm
Audition to be the new Mr Sheen
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Richoriginal on June 09, 2016, 10:14:09 pm
For the undecided pasties have spoken (http://www.cornishpastyassociation.co.uk/2016/06/a-statement-on-europe/)
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: tricky on June 10, 2016, 12:01:46 am
I've been listening to the standard of debate around question time and the public comment on it. Oh god. Idiots are going to kill our futures.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: DaveM on June 10, 2016, 12:09:27 am

I've been listening to the standard of debate around question time and the public comment on it. Oh god. Idiots are going to kill our futures.


Just heard question time and the first callers post show on five live.

My problem is being unable to listen to any of this 'debate' without screaming at the radio.

I fear you are right
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Russ on June 10, 2016, 12:22:12 am

I've been listening to the standard of debate around question time and the public comment on it. Oh god. Idiots are going to kill our futures.


Except that while many of the gobsh!te masses are spouting idiocy, it seems like many traditional right wing voters are very pro-Europe. My Dad, for example. He loves Cameron and has never voted anything other than Tory in his life, and he is staunchly pro-Europe because on both a macro and micro economic level it's the only sensible decision. His business will be hammered badly by an exit because he does a lot of business with a number of German firms.

I think that the Exit lot are very vocal, but the Remain voters are numerous and more inclined to speak with their vote. I think it will be close but I feel like the right decision will be made.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: tricky on June 10, 2016, 12:40:56 am
I am very afraid.  The only coherent argument I've heard is for eugenics.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: DaveM on June 10, 2016, 12:59:19 am

Except that while many of the gobsh!te masses are spouting idiocy, it seems like many traditional right wing voters are very pro-Europe. My Dad, for example. He loves Cameron and has never voted anything other than Tory in his life, and he is staunchly pro-Europe because on both a macro and micro economic level it's the only sensible decision. His business will be hammered badly by an exit because he does a lot of business with a number of German firms.

I think that the Exit lot are very vocal, but the Remain voters are numerous and more inclined to speak with their vote. I think it will be close but I feel like the right decision will be made.


Thats assuming that the remain voters actually go and vote.

It's far easier to be motivated to vote if you want 'change' rather than to keep things the way they are.

This whole referendum will depend on the vote turnout I suspect.

So much of the leave argument is based around immigration (ie. bloody foreigners) that people seem hypnotised by it. The arguments seem to be so base, so headline-grabbing, and unfortunately seem so blindly optimistic which only serves to make the arguments to remain so pessimistic and angled at risks, and lost opportunities. On the surface the leave argument is 'sexier' but it is easy to say "Everything will be wonderful if we leave" and have people panting with anticipation, despite practically all the experts and economists warning of grave risks.

Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Lessred on June 10, 2016, 06:34:39 am
People tend to talk change but with the pen in their hand they bottle it and vote for the status quo. I think remain will win, with a late surge, by over 5%.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Jeff on June 10, 2016, 06:59:14 am
Quooooo-o-o.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Nottingham Florist on June 10, 2016, 07:11:11 am
The Vote Leave argument is basically the Freedman Out argument and the Doughty Out argument: "This is sh!t! Anything would be better!" Boris is just a white Paul Williams.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Chicago on June 10, 2016, 02:24:41 pm


Switzerland seem to be doing interesting things considering that they are not in the EU.  They actually do five times more trade with Europe than we do which is interesting. They are also free to negotiate trade agreements with any country without EU interference.  Also they are voting on the living wage for all their citizens which would be about 2300 swiss francs a month for everybody and more for pensioners and this would take up 30% of their GDP but would actually increase spending power and less burden on social services.  It's an interesting concept and I like what they are trying to do.  The downside is that they are the Swiss which means that they have been spending other people's money for years and they are all arrogant Nazis.  Mmm but the possibilities are there for the United Kingdom to actually take control of their destiny without being dragged down by Greece and other silly bullsh!t.

Unfortunately if we left that would destroy the Premier league and possibly the championship which would be unpleasant but the biggest reason for staying with the EU (other than having to change my bloody passport) is BORIS CNUTING JOHNSON.  He is an utter fcuk face of an individual and if he wants out then he's up to something so I say we stay in and get Tricky his job back.


Chicago: Better in than out. 
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Simon. Not Steve or Nazimon on June 10, 2016, 03:31:03 pm
Switzerland are signed up to schengen, which would seem counterproductive if the reason for leaving is to control immigration and still pay billions to the EU. And obviously get little to no say in the running of it (for example, they can't veto Turkey but would have to accept Turks if they joined the EU).

And they had the referendum on citizens income and it was rejected. Not least because they didn't want to have to pay it to immigrants.

Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Nottingham Florist on June 12, 2016, 07:54:33 pm
For f*ck's sake, Britain, you're really going to do this, aren't you...
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Richoriginal on June 12, 2016, 08:29:06 pm

For f*ck's sake, Britain, you're really going to do this, aren't you...


My hope is that like during the Scotchland referendum, the "out" campaign made all the noise, but ended up losing to the 'remain' by half a million votes.

Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: JRs Cigarette on June 12, 2016, 08:59:39 pm
I'm getting more concerned we are going to vote out.

What is the actual binding nature of the referendum? Can MPs just say f*ck it and do nothing? What's the ramifications if they do?
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Richoriginal on June 12, 2016, 09:12:02 pm

I'm getting more concerned we are going to vote out.

What is the actual binding nature of the referendum? Can MPs just say f*ck it and do nothing? What's the ramifications if they do?


If we do vote "out" the government don't actually have to do it. So, in theory, Cameron could say "you're all a bunch of racist idiots and we're staying in" but that's pretty unlikely.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Nottingham Florist on June 12, 2016, 09:14:12 pm

I'm getting more concerned we are going to vote out.

What is the actual binding nature of the referendum? Can MPs just say f*ck it and do nothing? What's the ramifications if they do?


A referendum is only advisory. Parliament is sovereign (ironically). But there would be an unimaginable constitutional crisis if we voted out and MPs kept us in.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Jüânfrân on June 12, 2016, 09:19:36 pm
Interesting opinion piece in The Spectator
Essentially says, the younger generation want to stay, the older want out - so younger generation are urging their grandparents to think about the younger generation's future.
Historically, it's the older who vote, which is why the Remain campaign are worried.
But these voters are also the ones who think about things and can change their mind (see polls v result at 2015 General Election), so reckons they'll vote to stay anyway and result could be as much as 62-38 to remain.

For me, I've yet to see an argument to leave that stands up to any scrutiny. Lots of rhetoric, which seems to be lies, myth, urban legend and casual racism.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Simon. Not Steve or Nazimon on June 12, 2016, 09:27:02 pm

A referendum is only advisory. Parliament is sovereign (ironically). But there would be an unimaginable constitutional crisis if we voted out and MPs kept us in.


Surely it'll be the standard Europe approach to rejection in referendums: New PM (please not Boris), renegotiate, second referendum on slightly different terms. Remain wins.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: DaveM on June 12, 2016, 11:35:48 pm
To me, it all comes down to a question of risk.

If we leave, things may well be okay but we know quite clearly that all the strap-line statements of the leave camp are completely unrealistic so the best hope would be that things are no worse than they are now.

But the RISK is that they will be worse. Far worse, at least in the short term (and I'm talking ten years here)

I'm hoping that the older generation will be the ones who have the common sense to vote to remain. And I hope they remember the stuff their parents and grandparents went through when there was a Europe made up of independently operating nations and how that all worked out by way of two world wars.

It's interesting as well in that there are two major players in all this, who are likely representing the opposite side to the way they really feel. I have no doubt based on prior statements that Boris Johnson is more aligned with the remain camp, but is clearly using his positioning for self-serving purposes as a vote to leave could help propel him into Downing Street. And also Jeremy Corbin has always been very anti-EU and his half-arsed attitude to campaigning for remain, along with comments about only being 75% in favour of remaining show his true colours. It would be nice for either of these prominent politicians to have the courage of their convictions.

I'm a tory voter as well, but hearing the complete bollocks being said by Boris has certainly damaged his stock in my eyes, and probably many others also. If 'leave' do win and we end up with an ultra-right Conservative government that will be tricky for me to reconcile. I'm much more in the liberal-conservative end of the spectrum (you know, like Cameron or Blair ;) )

Just hope that common sense prevails
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Russ on June 13, 2016, 12:06:29 am
My Dad is a dyed in the wool Tory and I don't think I've ever heard him speak so venomously of any politician of any leaning as he does of Boris Johnson.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: JRs Cigarette on June 13, 2016, 08:57:22 am


I'm hoping that the older generation will be the ones who have the common sense to vote to remain. And I hope they remember the stuff their parents and grandparents went through when there was a Europe made up of independently operating nations and how that all worked out by way of two world wars.



What I've seen on other forums and Facebook etc, this argument is being used in the exact opposite way - "our Grandfather's didn't fight the war to be taken over by Germany" etc.

And the older generation (by all polls and by people I speak to) are 'out' rather than 'in' voters - again many 'remembering' a better time when we weren't ruled by Europe and were in control of things ourselves.  I've even seen people saying how growing up in the 50's was so much better, kids free to play outside etc.  I wasn't there (obviously) but that has to be the most rose tinted view ever, surely?

Which is why my only hope now is an out vote just ends up with cross party support for ignoring, or as said above, renegotiating a bit and doing it again.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: garf on June 13, 2016, 09:51:46 am

My hope is that like during the Scotchland referendum, the "out" campaign made all the noise, but ended up losing to the 'remain' by half a million votes.


I don't know many people in real life who admit they will be voting out.
Yet my Facebook is so full of sh!t ill thought out comments* you'd think the decision to leave was a done deal.
If nothing else we'll get to find out how representative social media really is. I'm guessing not very, but nervous. 

*My current favourite is "imagine you were deciding whether to enter the EU and if the answer is no then you should vote out."
Really? Regardless of what side of the argument you ans on, what sort of a f*ckwit do you have to be to think that makes any sense at all.
(Obviously the sort of f*ckwit that spends all day spouting bollocks on Facebook of course).



Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: JimShady on June 13, 2016, 09:57:58 am
I got a leaflet through my door yesterday with that £351m per day going to the EU or whatever it was quoted on it - I thought that the OUT campaign has been ordered to stop quoting it as it's so misleading?
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: JRs Cigarette on June 13, 2016, 10:11:36 am

I don't know many people in real life who admit they will be voting out.


Really?  From people I know and work with it is pretty even, but seems to be more 'out' than 'in'.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Andyp on June 13, 2016, 10:13:46 am

I got a leaflet through my door yesterday with that £351m per day going to the EU or whatever it was quoted on it - I thought that the OUT campaign has been ordered to stop quoting it as it's so misleading?


Unfortunately there is no law against people spouting bollocks to win a vote.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: DaveM on June 13, 2016, 10:16:36 am

What I've seen on other forums and Facebook etc, this argument is being used in the exact opposite way - "our Grandfather's didn't fight the war to be taken over by Germany" etc.


Well thats because they are morons.

'We' fought the war to protect Britain, and to stand up against an aggressor. Churchill always wanted closer ties with Europe but the war made him more resolute that we should never let that situation happen again, by ensuring we have union across Europe.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: JRs Cigarette on June 13, 2016, 12:17:00 pm
I agree with you. 

Merely pointing out that there a what seems to be a sizeable number of people who will vote out because as they see it we may have won the battle in WWII but we have been slowing losing the war ever since.

Morons they may be, but their vote won't count any less than yours or mine.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Simon. Not Steve or Nazimon on June 13, 2016, 12:27:04 pm


If nothing else we'll get to find out how representative social media really is. I'm guessing not very, but nervous. 



If social media was a reliable indicator, we'd have an independent Scotland and a Labour government.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: RD on June 13, 2016, 12:39:28 pm
If we've learned anything from this weekend it's that we aren't capable of standing up to the likes of Russia on our own.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Andyp on June 13, 2016, 02:02:33 pm

If we've learned anything from this weekend it's that we aren't capable of standing up to the likes of Russia on our own.


Yes it looks like football hooliganism is like many other things. We invented it but now others are much better at it.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: graham on June 13, 2016, 02:10:07 pm

If we've learned anything from this weekend it's that we aren't capable of standing up to the likes of Russia on our own.


I think we could put together 200 Nazi cage-fighters too, if we knew that was the name of the game. Our lads and dads in shorts and trainers weren't much of an opposition, even if they'd been sober.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Russ on June 13, 2016, 02:19:21 pm
Barry Girdles is commentating on this game.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: jp on June 13, 2016, 02:24:29 pm
A Russian MP and member of the Russia FA executive committee has said that the Russian fans were only doing what football fans do - fight - and they should be praised for upholding the honour of their country.

Good news for Russia 2018 then.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: steve on June 13, 2016, 02:57:55 pm

A Russian MP and member of the Russia FA executive committee has said that the Russian fans were only doing what football fans do - fight - and they should be praised for upholding the honour of their country.

Good news for Russia 2018 then.


Is that real? Surely UEFA have to respond to that.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: jp on June 13, 2016, 03:02:06 pm
The Guardian is reporting it as real.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/jun/13/moscow-football-official-to-violent-fans-well-done-lads-keep-it-up


You'd think FIFA might take an interest, too, but then again....
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: JimShady on June 13, 2016, 03:02:34 pm
Tweet here:

https://twitter.com/Russian1972/status/742256350424641536

If you run the text through Google translate:

"I do not see anything terrible in fight fans . On the contrary , well done , our guys . Keep it up!"
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: DaveM on June 14, 2016, 12:09:35 am
Feel a bit dirty posting this link, but if I get past the usual Tory-bashing, there is a rather scary projection here.

Of course probably won't happen, but not impossible by a long stretch...

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/13/brexit-supporters-leave-vote-right?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Lessred on June 14, 2016, 09:48:36 am
I don't for a second believe that we will have an extremist government (in a real sense) in the uk. It just isn't the way we are, she is a really really annoying commentator, like many on the opinion bits in the Guardian.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: JimShady on June 14, 2016, 10:06:50 am
Today is the first day where I've woke up and thought "Oh sh!t, we're actually going to vote Brexit aren't we" (we being the f*cking morons I seem to share this country with)
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: garf on June 14, 2016, 10:21:04 am

Today is the first day where I've woke up and thought "Oh sh!t, we're actually going to vote Brexit aren't we" (we being the f*cking morons I seem to share this country with)


Talking of morons; why do people feel the next to use this made up name? I'm voting Brleavethef*ckalone.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Simon. Not Steve or Nazimon on June 14, 2016, 10:25:23 am

Today is the first day where I've woke up and thought "Oh sh!t, we're actually going to vote Brexit aren't we" (we being the f*cking morons I seem to share this country with)


Yep. Put some money on it while it remains the second favourite, so I at least make a small amount of money before the economy goes down the toilet.

Despite Russ' belief in the silent majority of Cameron's supporters, the evidence is that people who want out are older and more passionate about it. Both of which mean they are more likely to vote (the former is the most important as shown in Scotland and the last GE).
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: DaveM on June 14, 2016, 11:11:16 am
Every time I hear anyone 'debate' on this subject on the wireless, it becomes clear that we should never ever decide anything based on a referendum.

Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Andyp on June 14, 2016, 12:45:17 pm
If the turnout is particularly low, say below 50% would parliament be within their rights to say f*ck off and call a general election as only 25% approx of the voters would have voted to leave. The Tories could then decide whether they want to be an in or an out party and hopefuly split between the sensible and loonie wings.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: redeye on June 14, 2016, 01:01:50 pm
Parliament doesn't have to pass the outcome of the referendum, though it would be a brave move to not enact the wishes of the unwashed masses.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Russ on June 14, 2016, 01:50:11 pm

If the turnout is particularly low, say below 50% would parliament be within their rights to say f*ck off and call a general election as only 25% approx of the voters would have voted to leave. The Tories could then decide whether they want to be an in or an out party and hopefuly split between the sensible and loonie wings.


That would be a strategy doomed to failure, I think. They need the full spectrum of voters, moderate to loonie, to keep their majority.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: tricky on June 14, 2016, 02:00:59 pm

That would be a strategy doomed to failure, I think. They need the full spectrum of voters, moderate to loonie, to keep their majority.


Also they have very few non-loonies (..or non-cynical chiseling b@stards, if you prefer) left to split off.  Ken Clarke will retire soon, and the rest fooked off to the Liberal doo-dahs years ago.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: JRs Cigarette on June 15, 2016, 11:53:34 am
Bloody fisherman are making a right racket on the Thames, I'm 33 floors up and it's still bloody annoying.

Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: noodlé on June 15, 2016, 12:35:06 pm

Yep. Put some money on it while it remains the second favourite, so I at least make a small amount of money before the economy goes down the toilet.

Despite Russ' belief in the silent majority of Cameron's supporters, the evidence is that people who want out are older and more passionate about it. Both of which mean they are more likely to vote (the former is the most important as shown in Scotland and the last GE).


if the yoof can't even be bothered to vote then they're obviously not as keen on remaining as they're telling the pollsters. revealed preference and all that.

my facebook and twitter feeds are full of people claiming they couldn't bear to stay in the uk if there's a 'leave' vote. having decided to go and live in a country that is not (shock! horror!) in the EU... and is, i think, broadly richer (per capita), more equal (gini), with better health and education systems, better public services in general, higher wages, and wombats (which are awesome)... i can't help but think that my friends are being a bit phil collins about it all. admittedly.. australia *doesn't* have the ashes... but what f*cking use was belgium for that anyway?

anyhow, i still haven't had my voting papers so y'all can f*ck off anyway.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: charlie on June 15, 2016, 12:43:15 pm
I think that Osborne's tax threats will ultimately ensure a Leave victory. What an arsehole that man is. He and Dave have been responsible for the worst campaign I can recall.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Jeff on June 15, 2016, 12:45:19 pm
Sounds like someone has forgotten about Megson.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Mike B. on June 15, 2016, 01:06:45 pm

I think that Osborne's tax threats will ultimately ensure a Leave victory. What an arsehole that man is. He and Dave have been responsible for the worst campaign I can recall.


Both have been spectacularly pathetic throughout.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: DaveM on June 15, 2016, 01:28:40 pm

I think that Osborne's tax threats will ultimately ensure a Leave victory. What an arsehole that man is. He and Dave have been responsible for the worst campaign I can recall.


The problem is that the Leave campaign will always be sexier and easier to sell. 'Claim back Britain', 'Give us our country back!', 'Stop immigration risking our jobs', 'Pump money wasted on Europe into the NHS', 'Build back Britains industries to be great again', 'Don't be governed by unelected beaurocrats' etc etc

It all sounds perfectly enticing. That there is little to no substance behind any of the claims, or factors which would prevent them from happening that are nothing to do with the vote, are conveniently ignored.

The remain campaign can't just make stuff up like that. It can't say that suddenly everything will be wonderful, as it is not a vote for change. Talk of working with the EU to refine processes and a good deal for Britain just doesn't get the juices flowing in the same way. The thing they are left with is to highlight the risks that a leave vote will bring with it and it is this risk highlighting that is beaten back with claims of 'scare-mongering' or 'lies!' or 'Who trusts experts anymore?' etc.

The message simply isn't getting through. Despite weeks of talk of the risks, a simple look at my facebook feed shows that the message isn't resonating. People planning to vote leave genuinely think that there will be zero downsides to voting to leave, and a rainbows-and-unicorns longer term view.

The threat by Osborne about an emergency budget and further cuts will put some off, but it is a blunt instrument designed to really hammer home the message that a leave vote will have repercussions. I can't really see what else he can realistically do, given how the campaign has gone so far.

Well actually I can. I think the Remain camp should play more on the rather obvious fact that if we did vote to remain now, and the various negative forecasts of the leave campaigners were true (say, around immigration) then we always reserve the right to leave in the future. I am seeing more and more leave people talking about this being a 'one shot chance to leave', but the reality is that isn't the case.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Simon. Not Steve or Nazimon on June 15, 2016, 01:40:12 pm
"We're the 5th biggest economy in the world, we'll do great".

"What were we in 1973 before we went in?"
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Mike B. on June 15, 2016, 01:52:37 pm

I am seeing more and more leave people talking about this being a 'one shot chance to leave', but the reality is that isn't the case.


Can you foresee a near future with a party in power that would risk another referendum if the vote is remain? I certainly can't see any of the current major flavours of bland promising or attempting it again. Most likely scenario is a horribly messy exit due to impending total failure of the structure itself.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: garf on June 15, 2016, 01:55:46 pm

The problem is that the Leave campaign will always be sexier and easier to sell.


It doesn't even have to be that.
Did you see the advert last night with a woman trying to get her mum seen in the (stay in EU) nhs hospital queued up behind a bunch of people of various dusky complexions
and getting seen in the (out) hospital. The conclusion was that with the £350m p/w (that does not exist) being spent on hospitals (which it won't of course).
I can't imagine anyone with half a brain watching that and not want to throw a brick at the tv (regardless of views on in or out). The fact that people are apparently lapping it up shows just how low the bar is.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: charlie on June 15, 2016, 02:24:01 pm
The trouble with the Remain campaign is that it should never have started. Cameron was advised to walk away from EU negotiations because of the lack of progress. He should have done so and spent next 12 months trying to get meaningful concessions. Instead he has chosen to risk the future of the country in order to preserve his place in history books. He and his odious chancellor have f*cked up.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: DaveM on June 15, 2016, 02:37:10 pm

Can you foresee a near future with a party in power that would risk another referendum if the vote is remain? I certainly can't see any of the current major flavours of bland promising or attempting it again.


Yes I can, if the impact of staying in long term was disastrous for some reason.

Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: DaveM on June 15, 2016, 02:40:20 pm

The trouble with the Remain campaign is that it should never have started. Cameron was advised to walk away from EU negotiations because of the lack of progress. He should have done so and spent next 12 months trying to get meaningful concessions. Instead he has chosen to risk the future of the country in order to preserve his place in history books. He and his odious chancellor have f*cked up.


He underestimated the power of the leave campaign and the ability for vast swathes of the public to lap up the bullsh!t being served. There has been pressure for a referendum for years - Cameron simply delivered on it, and probably regrets that now.

None of this was helped by the moderately pro-European Boris Johnson suddenly turning tail and jumping on to spearhead the leave campaign.

Anyway, I feel a bit more optimistic today - away from facebook and the media, I've had various conversations with folk who work in my office and the overwhelming view is towards 'Remain', so perhaps we are still seeing a slanted view of things (including the polls)

Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Russ on June 15, 2016, 02:42:50 pm

He underestimated ........... the ability for vast swathes of the public to lap up the bullsh!t


Given that's in part how he got elected, I don't think he's under any illusions about the public's willingness to lap up small minded xenophobic bullsh!t.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Simon. Not Steve or Nazimon on June 15, 2016, 08:04:36 pm

Anyway, I feel a bit more optimistic today - away from facebook and the media, I've had various conversations with folk who work in my office and the overwhelming view is towards 'Remain', so perhaps we are still seeing a slanted view of things (including the polls)




I'm guessing the people you are talking to are disproportionately well-educated, well-paid and under 60. All groups slanted towards staying in.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Russ on June 15, 2016, 08:08:48 pm

I'm guessing the people you are talking to are disproportionately well-educated, well-paid and under 60. All groups slanted towards staying in.


So what you're saying is that if you disregard the opinions of stupid, poor and old people, you'll get the right answer. Honestly, I'd vote for a government that promised to do that.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: tricky on June 15, 2016, 08:25:12 pm

So what you're saying is that if you disregard the opinions of stupid, poor and old people, you'll get the right answer. Honestly, I'd vote for a government that promised to do that.


Notoriously difficult to identify how wilfully stupid the apparently right sort are though.

Amongst the many reasons why I would be unsuitable for public office, is that i would insist on testing to allow ordinary members of the electorate to vote. Which is clearly open to abuse. Which would be part of the reason I'd be for it.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Russ on June 15, 2016, 08:31:17 pm

Notoriously difficult to identify how wilfully stupid the apparently right sort are though.

Amongst the many reasons why I would be unsuitable for public office, is that i would insist on testing to allow ordinary members of the electorate to vote. Which is clearly open to abuse. Which would be part of the reason I'd be for it.


We don't let blind people drive because it's not safe. I feel like we can apply the same logic to stupid people and voting.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Nottingham Florist on June 15, 2016, 08:48:07 pm

It doesn't even have to be that.
Did you see the advert last night with a woman trying to get her mum seen in the (stay in EU) nhs hospital queued up behind a bunch of people of various dusky complexions
and getting seen in the (out) hospital. The conclusion was that with the £350m p/w (that does not exist) being spent on hospitals (which it won't of course).
I can't imagine anyone with half a brain watching that and not want to throw a brick at the tv (regardless of views on in or out). The fact that people are apparently lapping it up shows just how low the bar is.


Yes.

I heard an old guy on the radio this morning bemoaning how England wasn't the same as it was before we joined the Common Market. He hadn't even decided yet to Vote Leave, but thought things had maybe changed too much in ways that he hadn't voted for.

That made me realise that Remain aren't just fighting against people who don't like the EU. They're fighting against people who maybe don't like takeaway coffee, Ikea furniture, reality TV, or Twenty20 cricket. Basically anything vaguely modern and/or broadly foreign.

They're going to be shocked when they discover that leaving the EU won't stop modernity or globalisation, aren't they....
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Russ on June 15, 2016, 08:50:58 pm

Yes.

I heard an old guy on the radio this morning bemoaning how England wasn't the same as it was before we joined the Common Market. He hadn't even decided yet to Vote Leave, but thought things had maybe changed too much in ways that he hadn't voted for.

That made me realise that Remain aren't just fighting against people who don't like the EU. They're fighting against people who maybe don't like takeaway coffee, Ikea furniture, reality TV, or Twenty20 cricket. Basically anything vaguely modern and/or broadly foreign.

They're going to be shocked when they discover that leaving the EU won't stop modernity or globalisation, aren't they....


Wait, the Leave campaigners are against Twenty20? I might have misjudged them.....
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Andyp on June 15, 2016, 08:56:28 pm

Yes.

I heard an old guy on the radio this morning bemoaning how England wasn't the same as it was before we joined the Common Market. He hadn't even decided yet to Vote Leave, but thought things had maybe changed too much in ways that he hadn't voted for.

That made me realise that Remain aren't just fighting against people who don't like the EU. They're fighting against people who maybe don't like takeaway coffee, Ikea furniture, reality TV, or Twenty20 cricket. Basically anything vaguely modern and/or broadly foreign.

They're going to be shocked when they discover that leaving the EU won't stop modernity or globalisation, aren't they....


I think they might be shocked by quite a few things if we leave. If it wasn 't causing real damage to young peoples lives I would be looking forward to the car crash.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Simon. Not Steve or Nazimon on June 15, 2016, 08:59:35 pm
Government should announce that any reduction in tax revenue as a result of leaving will be taken straight out of the state pension.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Guru on June 15, 2016, 09:08:00 pm

Yes.

I heard an old guy on the radio this morning bemoaning how England wasn't the same as it was before we joined the Common Market. He hadn't even decided yet to Vote Leave, but thought things had maybe changed too much in ways that he hadn't voted for.

That made me realise that Remain aren't just fighting against people who don't like the EU. They're fighting against people who maybe don't like takeaway coffee, Ikea furniture, reality TV, or Twenty20 cricket. Basically anything vaguely modern and/or broadly foreign.

They're going to be shocked when they discover that leaving the EU won't stop modernity or globalisation, aren't they....


Exactly.

I think there are a lot of people want things to stay the same (left and right wingers alike) and resist the march of the modern world. In order to do so, they have turned to political mavericks and outsiders like Farrage, BJ, Corbyn, Trump, Sanders.  Isn't it ironic that they have to vote so differently in the hope that things will stay the same? It should be a warning to them but I defer to the comments from Russ and Tricky about being too stupid to vote safely.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: tricky on June 15, 2016, 09:21:58 pm
There are a lot of really clever people, who make profoundly stupid decisions....but i don't think it's unreasonable to ask people to demonstrate a broad grasp of the question being asked, before actually participating in choosing an answer.

If only we had sent a load of economic migrants back where they came from, before the referendum.  The inability of the NHS to function might have killed just enough old people to help get a better outcome. As it is we are helping the old and idiotic to defy evolution and the natural order, to allow those least able to function in terms of our ability to compete in a modern world, to create our country in their image.  Not a brilliant plan.

I blame the tories.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Jeff on June 15, 2016, 09:50:15 pm

It doesn't even have to be that.
Did you see the advert last night with a woman trying to get her mum seen in the (stay in EU) nhs hospital queued up behind a bunch of people of various dusky complexions
and getting seen in the (out) hospital. The conclusion was that with the £350m p/w (that does not exist) being spent on hospitals (which it won't of course).
I can't imagine anyone with half a brain watching that and not want to throw a brick at the tv (regardless of views on in or out).


I couldn't believe they got away with that advert. Apart from the need for a brick it was downright misleading implying that leaving the EU would be better for your health.

Anyway, how did the boat battle finish up today? Was Brid involved?
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Nottingham Florist on June 15, 2016, 10:42:41 pm
AA Gill, of all the c*nts, says this:

Quote


It was the woman on Question Time that really did it for me. She was so familiar. There is someone like her in every queue, every coffee shop, outside every school in every parish council in the country. Middle-aged, middle-class, middle-brow, over-made-up, with her National Health face and weatherproof English expression of hurt righteousness, she’s Britannia’s mother-in-law. The camera closed in on her and she shouted: “All I want is my country back. Give me my country back.”

It was a heartfelt cry of real distress and the rest of the audience erupted in sympathetic applause, but I thought: “Back from what? Back from where?”

Wanting the country back is the constant mantra of all the outies. Farage slurs it, Gove insinuates it. Of course I know what they mean. We all know what they mean. They mean back from Johnny Foreigner, back from the brink, back from the future, back-to-back, back to bosky hedges and dry stone walls and country lanes and church bells and warm beer and skittles and football rattles and cheery banter and clogs on cobbles. Back to vicars-and-tarts parties and Carry On fart jokes, back to Elgar and fudge and proper weather and herbaceous borders and cars called Morris. Back to victoria sponge and 22 yards to a wicket and 15 hands to a horse and 3ft to a yard and four fingers in a Kit Kat, back to gooseberries not avocados, back to deference and respect, to make do and mend and smiling bravely and biting your lip and suffering in silence and patronising foreigners with pity.

We all know what “getting our country back” means. It’s snorting a line of the most pernicious and debilitating Little English drug, nostalgia. The warm, crumbly, honey-coloured, collective “yesterday” with its fond belief that everything was better back then, that Britain (England, really) is a worse place now than it was at some foggy point in the past where we achieved peak Blighty. It’s the knowledge that the best of us have been and gone, that nothing we can build will be as lovely as a National Trust Georgian country house, no art will be as good as a Turner, no poem as wonderful as If, no writer a touch on Shakespeare or Dickens, nothing will grow as lovely as a cottage garden, no hero greater than Nelson, no politician better than Churchill, no view more throat-catching than the White Cliffs and that we will never manufacture anything as great as a Rolls-Royce or Flying Scotsman again.

The dream of Brexit isn’t that we might be able to make a brighter, new, energetic tomorrow, it’s a desire to shuffle back to a regret-curdled inward-looking yesterday. In the Brexit fantasy, the best we can hope for is to kick out all the work-all-hours foreigners and become caretakers to our own past in this self-congratulatory island of moaning and pomposity.

And if you think that’s an exaggeration of the Brexit position, then just listen to the language they use: “We are a nation of inventors and entrepreneurs, we want to put the great back in Britain, the great engineers, the great manufacturers.” This is all the expression of a sentimental nostalgia. In the Brexiteer’s mind’s eye is the old Pathé newsreel of Donald Campbell, of John Logie Baird with his television, Barnes Wallis and his bouncing bomb, and Robert Baden-Powell inventing boy scouts in his shed.
All we need, their argument goes, is to be free of the humourless Germans and spoilsport French and all their collective liberalism and reality. There is a concomitant hope that if we manage to back out of Europe, then we’ll get back to the bowler-hatted 1950s and the Commonwealth will hold pageants, fireworks displays and beg to be back in the Queen Empress’s good books again. Then New Zealand will sacrifice a thousand lambs, Ghana will ask if it can go back to being called the Gold Coast and Britain will resume hand-making Land Rovers and top hats and Sheffield plate teapots.
There is a reason that most of the people who want to leave the EU are old while those who want to remain are young: it’s because the young aren’t infected with Bisto nostalgia. They don’t recognise half the stuff I’ve mentioned here. They’ve grown up in the EU and at worst it’s been neutral for them.

The under-thirties want to be part of things, not aloof from them. They’re about being joined-up and counted. I imagine a phrase most outies identify with is “women’s liberation has gone too far”. Everything has gone too far for them, from political correctness — well, that’s gone mad, hasn’t it? — to health and safety and gender-neutral lavatories. Those oldies, they don’t know if they’re coming or going, what with those newfangled mobile phones and kids on Tinder and Grindr. What happened to meeting Miss Joan Hunter Dunn at the tennis club? And don’t get them started on electric hand dryers, or something unrecognised in the bagging area, or Indian call centres , or the impertinent computer asking for a password that has both capitals and little letters and numbers and more than eight digits.

We listen to the Brexit lot talk about the trade deals they’re going to make with Europe after we leave, and the blithe insouciance that what they’re offering instead of EU membership is a divorce where you can still have sex with your ex. They reckon they can get out of the marriage, keep the house, not pay alimony, take the kids out of school, stop the in-laws going to the doctor, get strict with the visiting rights, but, you know, still get a shag at the weekend and, obviously, see other people on the side.
Really, that’s their best offer? That’s the plan? To swagger into Brussels with Union Jack pants on and say: “ ’Ello luv, you’re looking nice today. Would you like some?”

When the rest of us ask how that’s really going to work, leavers reply, with Terry-Thomas smirks, that “they’re going to still really fancy us, honest, they’re gagging for us. Possibly not Merkel, but the bosses of Mercedes and those French vintners and cheesemakers, they can’t get enough of old John Bull. Of course they’re going to want to go on making the free market with two backs after we’ve got the decree nisi. Makes sense, doesn’t it?”
Have no doubt, this is a divorce. It’s not just business, it’s not going to be all reason and goodwill. Like all divorces, leaving Europe would be ugly and mean and hurtful, and it would lead to a great deal of poisonous xenophobia and racism, all the niggling personal prejudice that dumped, betrayed and thwarted people are prey to. And the racism and prejudice are, of course, weak points for us. The tortuous renegotiation with lawyers and courts will be bitter and vengeful, because divorces always are and, just in passing, this sovereignty thing we’re supposed to want back so badly, like Frodo’s ring, has nothing to do with you or me. We won’t notice it coming back, because we didn’t notice not having it in the first place.

You won’t wake up on June 24 and think: “Oh my word, my arthritis has gone! My teeth are suddenly whiter! Magically, I seem to know how to make a soufflé and I’m buff with the power of sovereignty.” This is something only politicians care about; it makes not a jot of difference to you or me if the Supreme Court is a bunch of strangely out-of-touch old gits in wigs in Westminster or a load of strangely out-of-touch old gits without wigs in Luxembourg. What matters is that we have as many judges as possible on the side of personal freedom.

Personally, I see nothing about our legislators in the UK that makes me feel I can confidently give them more power. The more checks and balances politicians have, the better for the rest of us. You can’t have too many wise heads and different opinions. If you’re really worried about red tape, by the way, it’s not just a European problem. We’re perfectly capable of coming up with our own rules and regulations and we have no shortage of jobsworths. Red tape may be annoying, but it is also there to protect your and my family from being lied to, poisoned and cheated.

The first “X” I ever put on a voting slip was to say yes to the EU. The first referendum was when I was 20 years old. This one will be in the week of my 62nd birthday. For nearly all my adult life, there hasn’t been a day when I haven’t been pleased and proud to be part of this great collective. If you ask me for my nationality, the truth is I feel more European than anything else. I am part of this culture, this European civilisation. I can walk into any gallery on our continent and completely understand the images and the stories on the walls. These people are my people and they have been for thousands of years. I can read books on subjects from Ancient Greece to Dark Ages Scandinavia, from Renaissance Italy to 19th-century France, and I don’t need the context or the landscape explained to me. The music of Europe, from its scales and its instruments to its rhythms and religion, is my music. The Renaissance, the rococo, the Romantics, the impressionists, gothic, baroque, neoclassicism, realism, expressionism, futurism, fauvism, cubism, dada, surrealism, postmodernism and kitsch were all European movements and none of them belongs to a single nation.

There is a reason why the Chinese are making fake Italian handbags and the Italians aren’t making fake Chinese ones. This European culture, without question or argument, is the greatest, most inventive, subtle, profound, beautiful and powerful genius that was ever contrived anywhere by anyone and it belongs to us. Just look at my day job — food. The change in food culture and pleasure has been enormous since we joined the EU, and that’s no coincidence. What we eat, the ingredients, the recipes, may come from around the world, but it is the collective to and fro of European interests, expertise and imagination that has made it all so very appetising and exciting.

The restaurant was a European invention, naturally. The first one in Paris was called The London Bridge.

Culture works and grows through the constant warp and weft of creators, producers, consumers, intellectuals and instinctive lovers. You can’t dictate or legislate for it, you can just make a place that encourages it and you can truncate it. You can make it harder and more grudging, you can put up barriers and you can build walls, but why on earth would you? This collective culture, this golden civilisation grown on this continent over thousands of years, has made everything we have and everything we are, why would you not want to be part of it?

I understand that if we leave we don’t have to hand back our library ticket for European civilisation, but why would we even think about it? In fact, the only ones who would are those old, philistine scared gits. Look at them, too frightened to join in.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: jp on June 15, 2016, 10:50:42 pm
...which shows what a good writer he can be when he's not being a bell end.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: jp on June 15, 2016, 10:59:00 pm
Part of his wider point is one that's always struck me about the inherent conservatism of this country. It's quite simple: all the achievements of our glorious past (whether true, embellished, or plain made-up) which supposedly made this country great, were not won through people sitting around saying "lets keep it how it used to be'. People explored,  conquered, invented, 'innovated' (to use a horrible term), changed the rules, made new rules, and did things that no one else was doing and no one had done before. That is the essence of the 'greatness' of our past which some people now wish to 'preserve' by, er, hiding from the present and the future. Not only does it not make any sense, but it simply can't be done.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: JRs Cigarette on June 15, 2016, 11:03:34 pm

I think they might be shocked by quite a few things if we leave. If it wasn 't causing real damage to young peoples lives I would be looking forward to the car crash.


Trouble is the leavers will still blame the EU for the car crash that follows.  They've been promised great things bye those trusty folk like Boris and Farage, when they don't materialise it will be because of the foreigners again.

When we don't get full trade access to Europe no strings attached it's because the EU just won't negotiate nicely.

Can see why Boris went leave, it's a win win.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: JRs Cigarette on June 15, 2016, 11:05:35 pm

Part of his wider point is one that's always struck me about the inherent conservatism of this country. It's quite simple: all the achievements of our glorious past (whether true, embellished, or plain made-up) which supposedly made this country great, were not won through people sitting around saying "lets keep it how it used to be'. People explored,  conquered, invented, 'innovated' (to use a horrible term), changed the rules, made new rules, and did things that no one else was doing and no one had done before. That is the essence of the 'greatness' of our past which some people now wish to 'preserve' by, er, hiding from the present and the future. Not only does it not make any sense, but it simply can't be done.


I thought you were arguing for leave to begin with, leaving the EU is doing something no one has done before, capturing the bold British spirit.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Russ on June 15, 2016, 11:16:56 pm

AA Gill, of all the c*nts, says this:


I've always quite liked A.A.Gill.

This is a terrific piece of writing.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Guru on June 15, 2016, 11:37:10 pm

Trouble is the leavers will still blame the EU for the car crash that follows.  They've been promised great things bye those trusty folk like Boris and Farage, when they don't materialise it will be because of the foreigners again.

When we don't get full trade access to Europe no strings attached it's because the EU just won't negotiate nicely.

Can see why Boris went leave, it's a win win.


First they came for the Eastern European migrants, who will they come for next?
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: DaveM on June 16, 2016, 12:05:29 am
those bloody saxons, coming over here, stealing our jobs....
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: garf on June 16, 2016, 12:10:01 am

I've always quite liked A.A.Gill.

This is a terrific piece of writing.


It really is, the only shame is that he is writing for an audience that already agrees. The in camp need to make more sh!t up.

Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: DaveM on June 16, 2016, 12:13:02 am

It really is, the only shame is that he is writing for an audience that already agrees. The in camp need to make more sh!t up.


and the f*cking article is behind the Times paywall

Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Loafé on June 16, 2016, 07:35:55 am

It really is, the only shame is that he is writing for an audience that already agrees. The in camp need to make more sh!t up.

Exactly. People voting out are mainly voting on instinct rather than balanced argument, even MikeB seems to be doing that and he appears a bright enough bloke. I can't see all these pretty words in the boradsheets, or on newsnight, or on here, making any difference to out voters.

On a side note, why is the referendum on this date? All the HE students are in post exam party mode and out of their registered voting constituencies (unless they were unusually organised and registered in their Uni town).
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Seán on June 16, 2016, 08:28:57 am
The 23rd is 2 days after my birthday.

Also, has anyone else noticed how the arrangement of hbars atop the page loosely resembles the image of a gun? I've no idea what my seeing this tells me.

Hermann Rorschach would likely conclude I'm some sort of Republican American and ask me to tell him about my mother. Possibly.

Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: JRs Cigarette on June 16, 2016, 08:54:44 am


arrangement of hbars



No idea at all what this means.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: JimShady on June 16, 2016, 09:42:38 am
(https://snag.gy/qsHZ2x.jpg)
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Richoriginal on June 16, 2016, 09:47:07 am

Exactly. People voting out are mainly voting on instinct rather than balanced argument, even MikeB seems to be doing that and he appears a bright enough bloke. I can't see all these pretty words in the boradsheets, or on newsnight, or on here, making any difference to out voters.



Got into a chat with a guy I work with, who was voting out. I asked why, and he said that "His head said "in" but his heart is "out" and he'd like a bit of a change. So we chatted some more, and I explained why I was voting remain. By the end of the conversation, he'd changed his mind to remain. So maybe it's not up to the papers, maybe it's up to us. Find someone you know who is voting out and talk to them.

Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Jeff on June 16, 2016, 10:04:52 am
Bagsy not talking to my Dad.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: redeye on June 16, 2016, 10:48:26 am
Brilliant, from the Independent.

Knowing me, knowing EU.

(http://indy100.independent.co.uk/image/10727-1f8hfik.jpg)

Edit: Bugger, too big. On mobile, can tricky shrink it?
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Loafé on June 16, 2016, 11:18:59 am
That's the kind of argument I need. Look who you are backing, Mike! Clowns!
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Mike B. on June 16, 2016, 01:16:22 pm
My heroes!
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Russ on June 16, 2016, 07:53:59 pm
https://mobile.twitter.com/benjaminbutter/status/743412614852644864?s=04
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: agoodtype on June 16, 2016, 08:04:52 pm

Got into a chat with a guy I work with, who was voting out. I asked why, and he said that "His head said "in" but his heart is "out" and he'd like a bit of a change. So we chatted some more, and I explained why I was voting remain. By the end of the conversation, he'd changed his mind to remain. So maybe it's not up to the papers, maybe it's up to us. Find someone you know who is voting out and talk to them.


Or, he may have just told you that because you were sexually harrasing him in the workplace.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Chicago on June 16, 2016, 09:05:19 pm


I may be late to this and apologize if already covered but FCUKING HELL WHAT IS GOING ON?  An MP murdered because she was going to vote stay in?

I honestly think Humanity has lost it's mind..


I now if I could vote would definitely say in.  My mum doesn't know what to do, I might have a conversation to help her decide.


Chicago: Hiding in the USA
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: DaveM on June 17, 2016, 12:32:32 am
Love this quote from the BMJ statement urging doctors to vote 'remain' on the 23rd..

Quote
Those who want the UK to leave are not unlike the antivaccine lobbyists who, having forgotten the evils of measles, mumps and rubella, turn to the alleged harms of the vaccines themselves. Likewise Brexit campaigners have forgotten the evils of virulent nationalism because Europe has succeeded in containing them.


http://www.bmj.com/content/353/bmj.i3302
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: noodlé on June 17, 2016, 01:51:55 am

Love this quote from the BMJ statement urging doctors to vote 'remain' on the 23rd..

http://www.bmj.com/content/353/bmj.i3302


this seems to be a variant on the 'if the uk leaves the eu then germany will invade france again' meme.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Russ on June 17, 2016, 02:00:31 am
Has anyone actually made any kind of clear statements on what is going to happen to all the EU nationals currently working in the UK if enough f*ckwits vote to leave?
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: noodlé on June 17, 2016, 02:35:08 am

Has anyone actually made any kind of clear statements


its a good question, but no.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: redeye on June 17, 2016, 03:57:52 am

Has anyone actually made any kind of clear statements on what is going to happen to all the EU nationals currently working in the UK if enough f*ckwits vote to leave?


I think Farage's will tell his wife its time she went home.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Rich B on June 17, 2016, 08:34:55 am

Has anyone actually made any kind of clear statements on what is going to happen to all the EU nationals currently working in the UK if enough f*ckwits vote to leave?

Well, from my side of f*ckwit corner I hope the Leave Camp well and truly trounce the treasonous w@nkers ( I believe it is customary on here to insult the other side ) in the Remain Camp
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: jp on June 17, 2016, 09:46:11 am
That'sounds not really answering Russ's question though,  is it?
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Richoriginal on June 17, 2016, 09:51:55 am

That'sounds not really answering Russ's question though,  is it?


To be fair, none of the brexiters can becuase they don't have a clue.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: tricky on June 17, 2016, 09:59:46 am
Don't have a scooby is right.

To vote leave you should have to blindfold yourself and jump off a cliff. Which is effctively what they are demanding of the country. Of course if we could arranged this before the vote it would be problem solved. Most of the elderly, xenophobic, frothing at the mouth brigade would make an orderly pile and no longer be a strain on the health service or welfare state.

If only....
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Jeff on June 17, 2016, 10:01:33 am
To be fair to the xenophobic I don't think they get poorly any more than the rest of us.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: jp on June 17, 2016, 10:07:00 am

To be fair to the xenophobic I don't think they get poorly any more than the rest of us.


Oh, they do. It's the extra anxiety, see?
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Simon. Not Steve or Nazimon on June 17, 2016, 10:46:43 am

To be fair, none of the brexiters can becuase they don't have a clue.


Even if article 50 is activated, nothing happens to them for two years. We'd need a trading arrangement with the rest of Europe and their condition will be that we still pay in and still have a large degree of freedom of movement.

My guess would be that we'd be in a pretty similar situation to now but with slightly fewer obligations than a full member but no say and, especially, no veto.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: DaveM on June 17, 2016, 10:59:19 am

Even if article 50 is activated, nothing happens to them for two years. We'd need a trading arrangement with the rest of Europe and their condition will be that we still pay in and still have a large degree of freedom of movement.

My guess would be that we'd be in a pretty similar situation to now but with slightly fewer obligations than a full member but no say and, especially, no veto.


I'm sure it was stressed by one of the Leave people - could have been Farage - that there is no issue with anyone currently here, and all their concern lies with future controls.

Of course, if you implement the need for Work/Residency Visa's for EU nationals then you will need to retrospectively provide them, which opens up - presumably - the possible opportunity to deport.

I'm sure this will all be thrashed out in the two years post Brexit vote, in parallel with the recession and political upheaval
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: garf on June 17, 2016, 12:24:54 pm

I'm sure it was stressed by one of the Leave people - could have been Farage - that there is no issue with anyone currently here, and all their concern lies with future controls.


I'm sure even the Third Reich originated from less extreme principles.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Nottingham Florist on June 17, 2016, 03:30:10 pm

I think Farage's will tell his wife its time she went home.


Frankie Boyle: Immigrants do the jobs no one British can face doing. That's why Nigel Farage has a German wife. 
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: DaveM on June 17, 2016, 11:54:32 pm
Ok I know we are still getting over the shock of Jo Cox's horrible murder

With the suspension of campaigning over the weekend, and the parliamentary recall on Monday, it is going to be Tuesday before the national debate gets going again less than 48hrs before the polls.

I wonder if this is likely to take the edge off the campaigns so much that turn-out on polling day will be severely reduced?

I can understand the suspension of campaigning on friday but....

Ah f*ck it...I must just be a heartless b@stard who enjoys shouting at my TV/Radio too much
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Richoriginal on June 18, 2016, 12:47:29 am
Times says remain. http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/remaking-europe-h7lcgs8bw?shareToken=1516717a913edfa20d09f27f111bdfe2

Which is surprising after the way the sun went.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: DaveM on June 18, 2016, 01:45:14 am

Times says remain. http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/remaking-europe-h7lcgs8bw?shareToken=1516717a913edfa20d09f27f111bdfe2

Which is surprising after the way the sun went.
[/quote

The comments seem to be universally dismissing their position, which is disappointing
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Richoriginal on June 18, 2016, 09:39:51 pm


The comments seem to be universally dismissing their position, which is disappointing



It is understood that columnists such as Phil Collins, Lord (Danny) Finkelstein and Oliver Kamm had argued to Witherow that the Times should endorse remaining in the EU. Their views are shared by around two-thirds of the newspaper’s readers, according to surveys. (http://www.theguardian.com/media/2016/jun/18/rupert-murdoch-newspapers-eu-referendum-sun-times)

So, hopefully its the "leave" people being more vocal about their support?
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Seven on June 18, 2016, 10:20:16 pm

It is understood that columnists such as Phil Collins, Lord (Danny) Finkelstein and Oliver Kamm had argued to Witherow that the Times should endorse remaining in the EU. Their views are shared by around two-thirds of the newspaper’s readers, according to surveys. (http://www.theguardian.com/media/2016/jun/18/rupert-murdoch-newspapers-eu-referendum-sun-times)

So, hopefully its the "leave" people being more vocal about their support?


The typical Brexiter is the angry, shouty cinema woman punching type so I think we all get to hear that they 'want their country back' above the quieter less angry remain types. But the polls are putting it pretty even for what they are worth.

I was a little unsure which way to vote when all this started but having considered it all and watched plenty of debates I'm pretty disgusted with myself I even considered voting out.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Russ on June 18, 2016, 11:24:23 pm

The typical Brexiter is the angry, shouty cinema woman punching type so I think we all get to hear that they 'want their country back' above the quieter less angry remain types. But the polls are putting it pretty even for what they are worth.

I was a little unsure which way to vote when all this started but having considered it all and watched plenty of debates I'm pretty disgusted with myself I even considered voting out.


I think it's to your credit that you started with all options open, and then based your decision on the information you had taken in and considered. I just don't understand how anyone can actually look at any of the facts and decide that leaving is the better option. I can't see a single positive to it.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Richoriginal on June 18, 2016, 11:49:08 pm
https://m.facebook.com/tilott/posts/10208018108063220?pnref=story
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Russ on June 19, 2016, 12:05:32 am
It's good, but I disagree with the assertion that Exit would mean that the UK become the "poodle of the USA". It will be much worse than that - the USA will have virtually no interest in the UK from any kind of meaningful perspective. Right now the UK is a great access point to European business for America, but without EU membership the UK loses pretty much all of its value to the US.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: RD on June 19, 2016, 06:36:24 am

It's good, but I disagree with the assertion that Exit would mean that the UK become the "poodle of the USA". It will be much worse than that - the USA will have virtually no interest in the UK from any kind of meaningful perspective. Right now the UK is a great access point to European business for America, but without EU membership the UK loses pretty much all of its value to the US.


This
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: steve on June 19, 2016, 12:47:32 pm

It's good, but I disagree with the assertion that Exit would mean that the UK become the "poodle of the USA". It will be much worse than that - the USA will have virtually no interest in the UK from any kind of meaningful perspective. Right now the UK is a great access point to European business for America, but without EU membership the UK loses pretty much all of its value to the US.


Assuming that there even is a UK if we leave the EU. Scotland and N Ireland could easily seek an alternative and Wales does far better out of the EU for investment than it does London.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: DaveM on June 19, 2016, 01:04:04 pm

https://m.facebook.com/tilott/posts/10208018108063220?pnref=story


I wish, just for once, that when writing these opinion pieces designed to be shared across social media people would leave their party political views at the door. I know there are variables relating to party politics wrapped up in it but still. Reason - as soon as someone declares a 'side' then others on the other 'side' will pretty much stop reading.

Everything this guy says makes a degree of sense, especially around subsidies and the tiny amount of GDP paid for EU membership, but then he throws an anti-Tory veil over it and will switch off many who would benefit from reading it. All 'in my opinion' of course.

This vote is cross-party. A vote for the future of these islands.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Mike B. on June 19, 2016, 08:16:51 pm
I didn't agree with Dave giving Mr. Dimbelby that 'Stop!' hand tonight. I can live with 'Look at how sincere I'm being to you and the camera' or 'I can count on my fingers, look!' gesticulations, but there has to be a little respect in these important broadcasts and he did the hand thing to the esteemed Mr. Dimbleby at least three times and I simply won't have it. For that reason I've decided I shall remain in the leave camp.

At least he didn't interrupt or talk over everything said, unlike that condescending Ashdown fossil that still manages to get both elected and booked onto Question Time.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: DaveM on June 19, 2016, 08:21:38 pm

I didn't agree with Dave giving Mr. Dimbelby that 'Stop!' hand tonight. I can live with 'Look at how sincere I'm being to you and the camera' or 'I can count on my fingers, look!' gesticulations, but there has to be a little respect in these important broadcasts and he did the hand thing to the esteemed Mr. Dimbleby at least three times and I simply won't have it. For that reason I've decided I shall remain in the leave camp.



Good to see you are basing your vote reason on sound analysis of the situation at hand :)
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Mike B. on June 19, 2016, 08:27:31 pm

Good to see you are basing your vote reason on sound analysis of the situation at hand :)


Of course - much the same as your esteemed self, sir (/madam/person of unspecified gender/origin/dimension).
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: DaveM on June 19, 2016, 11:39:53 pm
Absolutely. I'm voting remain simply because Farage is a c*nt and I like unfettered access to all the porn and red light establishments our European bredren are so adept at creating
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: JRs Cigarette on June 20, 2016, 09:01:29 am
I've given up.  Every time I watch or hear members of the public (to be honest from both sides) on this topic it just annoys me.

I reckon personally I will be fine whatever the outcome - should it be leave and nothing much happens then fine, if all the bad things predicted come even half true (as I think they probably will) I can be relentless in my 'I told you so you f*ckwits' gloating.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: charlie on June 20, 2016, 09:39:27 am
I have gone from being solidly IN to not having a clue, to leaning towards OUT. Now I am a reluctant remainer. Reluctant because I think the EU is horribly, deeply flawed and I can't see it ever changing. But it is probably better than the alternative. Besides which, no matter how hideous I find many of the leading Remain campaigners, and how twisted their arguments, I cannot in all conscience allow myself to stand alongside Farage and the backward-looking, racist, xenophobic Sun newspaper and its thick and hopeless readership.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: DaveM on June 20, 2016, 10:27:36 am
To me, this has been the biggest 'no brainer' political decision I have seen in my lifetime. I am genuinely astonished there is the level of debate there is.

The Leave campaigners have not presented one watertight argument why leaving the EU is a good thing. Everything is inane strap lines like 'Make Britain Great Again' or are trivialising extremely difficult things into being simple - Re-Build our Industry! Don't rely on the EU for imports! The stuff they are spinning is so ridiculous and yet people are lapping it up. The money we pay to the EU for membership is a drop in the ocean in terms of NHS funding, and yet we can apparently divert the money we save towards new hospitals. Ok, but what about the various legal cases to work out separation? What about farming subsidies? What about incentives for business to keep the UK as a base? What about... well you get the idea. It's complete pie-in-the-sky fantasy economics.

IF we are better leaving then for f*cks sake come up with a compelling argument AND a half-decent strategy of what we would do to make things better, then I may listen

In the meantime we should absolutely remain. Work on the problems in the EU from a position of inclusion sure, but absolutely remain.

Anything else is idiocy IMO
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Simon. Not Steve or Nazimon on June 20, 2016, 10:37:21 am
Protectionism is one of those things that sounds like it makes sense but actually makes things much worse.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Simon. Not Steve or Nazimon on June 20, 2016, 10:40:11 am

"We're the 5th biggest economy in the world, we'll do great".

"What were we in 1973 before we went in?"


Actually 5th, it turns out. Albeit ahead of China and behind France then and behind China and ahead of France now.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: jp on June 20, 2016, 10:43:09 am
(In reply to Dave M) Exactly. I like Europe, but I don't have any particular sentiment for the EU itself.  If there are good reasons for leaving then fine, I'll consider them. 

I haven't seen any. The leave campaign hasn't even risen above Donald Trump's "make x great again', or the Scottish Nats' "all the bad things that happen here are their [points to Westminster] fault and once their influence is gone, we'll create an economic miracle and a progressive democratic utopia". It really is as sad as that.

You should never trust nationalists, of whatever political hue.  They're not interested in what's in your interest -  it's just another way of gaining power for themselves.  You could say that all politicians are bad and self-serving, but those who rely on and stir up nationalist sentiment are the lowest of all.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: garf on June 20, 2016, 10:43:20 am

Reluctant because I think the EU is horribly, deeply flawed


Really? I'm sure it's not perfect and some of the imperfections have been highlighted in recent times, and in many cases exaggerated or simply invented.
My gut feeling is that it's not significantly worse than any other alternative. I've certainly not seen anything in recent times to suggest otherwise.
The sh!t being flung by both sides is depressing; but inevitable. From the out side because there really isn't a killer argument in favour of leaving; but lots of niggles and prejudices that can be cobbled together to agitate the masses. It's not much different for the in side. No one can really predict what might happen in 5 years time regardless of what the result is on Thursday. The City might remain as the powerhouse of the UK Economy and we continue to thrive, and have hundreds of shiny new (empty) hospitals to boot. Or Germany might make some attractive offers to banks to shift their operations to Frankfurt; this has been tried before, but with the upheaval that would surely follow an out vote I'm sure it could be made to appear more attractive this time round.

But the real "in" arguments are not as eyecatching. We've done alright in the EU and we expect to continue to do so; doesn't have the same appeal as, get our money back from the nasty foreigners, and while we are at it shut the borders (and whisper lets start sending them back too). It doesn't help of course that many people in the groups that; let's just say, might be more easily swayed feel they haven't benefited from the UK economic performance and when it's hinted that the large sums of money we "waste" on the EU might somehow help them. I grew up in a working class family in the 60s and to say things haven't improved to me seems mind boggling. And of course at the end of the day the IN team are talking to the same audience as the OUT team. Not the decided on either side, but those in the middle. It should be no surprise then that the arguments are being made in the same manner.

For me the IN position is a "no brainer". On a personal and a national level there's nothing to suggest that OUT will improve the long term econmonic outlook. And when you take away the petty nationalism what else is there? Add to that the inevitable risk of a transition, I can't see what the short or long term benefit might be that would justify that risk.


I cannot in all conscience allow myself to stand alongside Farage and the backward-looking, racist, xenophobic Sun newspaper and its thick and hopeless readership.


Well quite; and given that there's no compelling argument either way beyond the immediate risk, that for me is enough to put me firmly in the IN camp.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Richoriginal on June 20, 2016, 12:52:29 pm

(In reply to Dave M) Exactly. I like Europe, but I don't have any particular sentiment for the EU itself.  If there are good reasons for leaving then fine, I'll consider them. 

I haven't seen any. The leave campaign hasn't even risen above Donald Trump's "make x great again', or the Scottish Nats' "all the bad things that happen here are their [points to Westminster] fault and once their influence is gone, we'll create an economic miracle and a progressive democratic utopia". It really is as sad as that.

You should never trust nationalists, of whatever political hue.  They're not interested in what's in your interest -  it's just another way of gaining power for themselves.  You could say that all politicians are bad and self-serving, but those who rely on and stir up nationalist sentiment are the lowest of all.


this.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Andyp on June 20, 2016, 02:37:18 pm
For anyone still in doubt here is a very informative video from a legal / constitutional point of view which highlights some interesting facts about the campaign.

https://www.facebook.com/UniversityofLiverpool/videos/1293361974024537/
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on June 21, 2016, 10:12:05 am

Really? I'm sure it's not perfect and some of the imperfections have been highlighted in recent times, and in many cases exaggerated or simply invented.
My gut feeling is that it's not significantly worse than any other alternative. I've certainly not seen anything in recent times to suggest otherwise.



For the sake of balanced argument I'm going to cross swords with you on this. The EU has done a lot of damage to Europe. Whether that damage would have been worse without the EU is what should really be debated and whether leaving the EU would improve the situation is the key question we should be asking.
In terms of damage, the EU has clearly decimated several economies across the continent. Greece is the poster boy, clearly. The Euro as a currency is fundamentally flawed and has led to serious imbalances across the trading block. Germany pursued a policy of austerity from the late-nineties through to last decade as just the same time as the Euro was bedding in. Due to the austerity policies, low interest rates were required and this was implemented. These same low interest rates, which were really set for Germany (no surprises seeing as its the largest economy) enabled nations with less robust economies to create a period of illusory growth fuelled by a spectacular credit binge. A currency should be a fairly simple thing to manage, and at the national level there are methods of ensuring that credit does not get out of control (although in the UK and US this has been ignored - we will face our own consequences at some point in the future regardless of the result on Thursday). On a continental level, there is not enough flexibility to ensure a stable currency for any sustained period. Can anyone seriously tell me that Greece posed the same credit risk as Germany in the mid-2000s? No, they can't but Greece was able to borrow money at the same rates as the Germans all the same.
At this point, the real damage was done. Instead of highlighting the failures of the single-currency in causing this crisis, the Germans and to a lesser extent, French, decided to place the blame wholesale at the door of the Greeks. The real culprits were once again the banks who continued to lend money to Greece following the 2008 crash until the inevitable happened. The EU (driven mostly by the Germans and French) rejected any notion of trimming the debts and insisted on full payments. The raison d-etre for this was the unwillingness of the German and French taxpayers to bail out the profligate Greeks.l The real reason is because the German and French banks were the ones most exposed to the bad debts, so in reality austerity has been imposed on Greece in order to bail out German and French banks (it isn't working as the increasing problems at Deutsche Bank highlight). The Irish, Spanish and Portuguese economies had already been eviscerated by this point; yes, Ireland is growing again, but from a very low base and it will take a very long time to fully recover.
So, the biggest flaw in the EU project is the single currency.
How does this apply to the UK? It doesn't, so we can write it off as a referendum issue. The UK will, rightly, never join the single currency, more by luck than judgement, but we will keep the Pound nevertheless.

A second issue is unaccountability. There is a problem here. For one thing, there is a lot of complaint about unelected officials making decisions in remote locations. I do have some sympathy with this argument, but at the same time turnout in European elections is horrific which enables anti-EU parties to gain the most seats for the UK in each election. We keep returning UKIP and Euro-sceptic Tories to the European parliament, and then we are surprised that we don't have much say in Europe? Get the f*ck out and vote rather than moaning about it. I know a Tory Councillor in London (he's alright despite being a Tory) and he tells me that the UKIP members of the council are terrible; absolutely clueless when it comes to running a council and very disconnected from the electorate. Of course, the EU parliament does not have the power that it should; the real power lies with the Council of Ministers and the Commisioners. Given that the Commisioners are nominated by national governments you could argue that there is some accountability here (although of course it could also be described as an exercise in power-broking). Finally the Council of Ministers is made up from national governments as you'd expect. So, accountability does exist, but the whole edifice is rather bureaucratic and seems remote. Having said that, the majority of laws passed from the EU to the UK do not have a large impact on the UK economy; most decisions and regulations relate to very localised issues and are totally irrelevant to the UK, so the theory that the EU burdens the UK with excessive regulation is disingenious; if there is an issue, why not highlight the laws that cause so many problems? This is one of the areas where the Leave campaigners have deliberately blurred the argument and, a bit like the Tory attacks on Labour's economic record leading up to the 2015 election, if you throw enough sh!t then eventually people will believe it.

The same can also be said for the claims involving the costs of EU membership. The claims of £350m per week have been widely discredited, but if you repeat something often enough then it becomes FACT (as we know here on Talkback).

This brings us to the most controversial topic, that of immigration, and the true central tenet of the UKIP argument and also the main reason why I will be voting Remain on Thursday. Put simply, our economy is creating employment, but the employment being created is low paid and insecure. Coupled with employment legislation that is generally weaker than in the rest of the EU we see a lot of immigration to our shores to fill these positions leading to accusations that the foreigners are coming here and taking jobs that could be filled by British workers. Of course, there is an element of truth in this argument, but if the economy is only capable of creating lower-skilled and therefore lower-paid jobs then the issue is with the economy rather than any organisation of which we are a member. Much of the growth during the period of the coalition government was driven by immigration as shown by GDP per head figures which barely recovered to 2008 levels by the time of the 2015 election. These economic issues also tie in with another of the Leave campaigns claims that the UK can become a 'buccaneering' nation when freed from the fetters of the EU. Put simply, this means reducing employment legislation further and creating yet more low-paid and low-skilled jobs. The economic malaise is caused by the endless pursuit of a free-market Utopia whereby the state is deemed unable to provide any economic benefit to the nation and that private enterprise is the only way to go. There is some truth in this in most areas of the economy, but even most neo-classical economists agree that there are areas where the market cannot provide adequate coverage and the state must step in. So, instead of investing money in infrastructure projects and training the population, the government insists on cutting everything in order to balance the books, comparing the national economy to that of a household. This is a total bullsh!t argument that an A Level economics student should be able to destroy. Between 1950 and 2008 the UK ran a surplus only 8 times, yet the ratio of debt to GDP fell from 200% to 50% which contradicts Osborne's assertions that we have to balance the books. He really should take more note of debt burdens in the wider economy where massive amounts of capital are held in the most unproductive area which is the property market. Britain's obsession with ever-rising house prices and the subsequent tying of large amount of economic resources in something which provides no competitive advantage is the major reason why the economy has flagged. Of course, no politician would date admit this, and Osborne's own agenda has been to subsidise the market to keep this going. I'm 99.9% sure that those in the Leave camp would continue to pursue this policy, so voting to Leave will make no difference.

Immigrants putting pressure on services? Of course they are. However, the government has slashed spending on public services, so there would be a crisis whether we had high immigration or not. Studies consistently show that immigration brings more to the economy than it takes out, so we cannot blame any crisis in services on immigration; rather it is the fault of underinvestment and mismanagement.

I could go on, but these are the sort of arguments I would like to have seen made during this referendum. Of course, the mob in control of Leave, a collection of ideologues, racists and leadership contenders have dragged the debate down to the lowest common denominator. The real reason I will be backing Remain is not because of the strength of the arguments made by Remain; rather it is because the image of a Britain outside of Europe led by the likes of JOhnson, Gove and Duncan-Smith fills me with fear.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Nottingham Florist on June 21, 2016, 10:26:11 am
Yes. In short:

The % of our national budget that we send to / invest in the EU is tiny.

Austerity has put a far bigger strain on public services than immigration.

Our lawmakers include hundreds of unelected Lords.

Farage is a c*nt.

REMAIN.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Rich B on June 21, 2016, 11:44:39 am
That's made my mind up - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36584685
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Richoriginal on June 21, 2016, 12:03:59 pm

That's made my mind up - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36584685


Yay! Another one for remain. Well done Rich.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: redeye on June 21, 2016, 01:31:22 pm
Simple example to enlighten thick people.

Cars. If Turkey, outside the EU, wants to manufacture cars for sale in the EU, they must conform to EU regulations on emissions. They must conform to EU regulations on safety. The fuel they run on, eg Diesel Euro V specification, must conform to EU regulations. Everything about them must conform to EU regulations.

Unless manufacturers are willing to build separate production lines, Turkish cars and fuel are going to have to conform to regulations created by the EU, regulations that Turkey had absolutely no say on.

As it stands, we have a very important say when it comes to building EU laws and regulations. If we leave, in order to continue to trade with the EU, we will still need to follow all EU policies, without having any say in their creation. They will be created with the interests of the members of the EU in mind, not the UK. Its been said many times, we will be bound by the EU without a voice.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Russ on June 21, 2016, 01:37:56 pm

Simple example to enlighten thick people.

Cars. If Turkey, outside the EU, wants to manufacture cars for sale in the EU, they must conform to EU regulations on emissions. They must conform to EU regulations on safety. The fuel they run on, eg Diesel Euro V specification, must conform to EU regulations. Everything about them must conform to EU regulations.

Unless manufacturers are willing to build separate production lines, Turkish cars and fuel are going to have to conform to regulations created by the EU, regulations that Turkey had absolutely no say on.

As it stands, we have a very important say when it comes to building EU laws and regulations. If we leave, in order to continue to trade with the EU, we will still need to follow all EU policies, without having any say in their creation. They will be created with the interests of the members of the EU in mind, not the UK. Its been said many times, we will be bound by the EU without a voice.


Clearly that's bullsh!t. When the UK leaves the EU the next generation will suddenly be inspired to become the living reincarnation of Isambard Kingdom Brunel and Robert Stevenson, and the country will buid its own cars which will be twice as fast and four times as comfortable and a third the cost of those committee-designed foreign buckets of junk.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Simon. Not Steve or Nazimon on June 21, 2016, 01:39:35 pm
T'chah. We'll trade with the rest of the world, which the EU stops us from doing - there are no BMWs, French wine or Ikeas outside of Europe. FACT! And we'll get better trade deals than the EU will or does, despite being a much smaller market.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Jeff on June 21, 2016, 01:45:18 pm

Clearly that's bullsh!t. When the UK leaves the EU the next generation will suddenly be inspired to become the living reincarnation of Isambard Kingdom Brunel and Robert Stevenson, and the country will buid its own cars which will be twice as fast and four times as comfortable and a third the cost of those committee-designed foreign buckets of junk.


Excellent, lets Brexit motherf*ckers!
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Simon. Not Steve or Nazimon on June 21, 2016, 01:50:59 pm

Excellent, lets Brexit motherf*ckers!


Another possible upside for you: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36526298
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Jeff on June 21, 2016, 03:11:12 pm
If I was stupid enough to vote out I'd probably buy that crap too.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on June 21, 2016, 09:33:35 pm

Clearly that's bullsh!t. When the UK leaves the EU the next generation will suddenly be inspired to become the living reincarnation of Isambard Kingdom Brunel and Robert Stevenson, and the country will buid its own cars which will be twice as fast and four times as comfortable and a third the cost of those committee-designed foreign buckets of junk.


I liken the Exit camp (I refuse to use the term 'Brexit' - exactly the sort of cliched journalistic term that I abhor) to thinking that the UK will emerge from a very bad party into the early daylight of a glorious sunny morning. Vaughan Williams will be playing in the air as kids gambol along the country lanes pushing wheels along with sticks as the village policeman gives them a cuff around the ear for being a cheeky scamp. The reinvigorated entrepreneurial classes will once again start to build villages for their staff and expand their investment in public schooling for the benefit of future generations. Workhouses can be built to keep the poor out of sight; the workhouses themselves will be built next to detention centres for immigrants who dare to try and enter the new British Utopia as the strains of Rule Brittania revives a splendid patriotism where everyone knows their place.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: charlie on June 22, 2016, 08:08:53 am
Last night's "debate" was pathetic. Pre-prepared scripts read aloud (how many times can you repeat 'take control' in two hours?) by a bunch of people already point-scoring for position post-referendum.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Jeff on June 22, 2016, 08:24:47 am

Another possible upside for you: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36526298


If this was to happen could we put up some big f*ck-off tariffs and then when the b@stards squeal we just Berlin blockade their ass until they cave when they are hungry?
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Richoriginal on June 22, 2016, 11:30:46 am
Farage: "this referendum is the people v the establishment"

I assume he's painting his side as the "people". Right. Because Boris is about as much as a man of the people as Cameron is for the other side.

Farage really is a tool. Is anyone taken in by such bollocks?
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Simon. Not Steve or Nazimon on June 22, 2016, 11:38:30 am
That'll be Nigel Farage, former commodity broker, educated at Dulwich College. It's marketing genius that so many people seem to have accepted him as a "man of the people" (along with Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson).
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Jeff on June 22, 2016, 11:56:37 am
Loads of people are buying that sh!t - highlights from my Facebook feed in the last 2hrs. The middle one is mainly for Sean's benefit and not really relevant.


1. This is why I love the Daily Mail
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: JimShady on June 22, 2016, 11:59:09 am
The CAPS LOCK..... arrrgh the CAPITALS....
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: DaveM on June 22, 2016, 12:31:02 pm
That post doesn't look real. Surely no-one can be THAT dim.....
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: garf on June 22, 2016, 12:39:06 pm

That post doesn't look real. Surely no-one can be THAT dim.....


Seriously? Facebook is full of sh!t just like this. You need to get out of that dungeon more.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Seven on June 22, 2016, 01:04:52 pm
A brexiter campaigner in Market Harborough asked me if I'd decided which way to vote. I told her I'd be reamaining. As I walked off she shouted "think of our history". I told her I was thinking of our future.

An oaf a bit further down was shouting come and get your free English chocolate. If I hadn't had to pop into Wilko's to get some shampoo I'd have told him I preferred Belgian chocolate.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Simon. Not Steve or Nazimon on June 22, 2016, 01:06:10 pm

That post doesn't look real. Surely no-one can be THAT dim.....


Google the first line - it's one of those made-up stories that people think makes their case in a neat way and get shared around. (Like the one yesterday about the person on the bus speaking Welsh and being mistaken for an immigrant.)
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Seán on June 22, 2016, 01:22:43 pm
I like the middle one best.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: RD on June 22, 2016, 01:24:28 pm
Remain vote will win by at least 5%

Nigel Farage will be munching on kangaroo cocks in the jungle by next Christmas
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: JRs Cigarette on June 22, 2016, 01:35:53 pm

Seriously? Facebook is full of sh!t just like this. You need to get out of that dungeon more.


I've seen a lot of sh!t on Facebook, but that one has to be a parody.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: garf on June 22, 2016, 02:01:25 pm
I was referring to the no one can be that dim bit, but the content is no less daft than a lot of sh!t people are coming out with.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on June 22, 2016, 04:40:26 pm

Remain vote will win by at least 5%

Nigel Farage will be munching on kangaroo cocks in the jungle by next Christmas


I hope you are right on both counts.
In terms of polls, I suspect it'll be similar to the Scottish revolution: If the polls show a tie or Exit slightly ahead then Remain will win. There's my c*nt punt.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: DaveM on June 22, 2016, 05:16:03 pm
I've taken friday off work so I can finish off my bunker, just in case
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Russ on June 22, 2016, 07:16:17 pm
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/brexit-poll-new-survey-shows-leave-campaign-with-slim-lead-on-eve-of-eu-referendum-a3278521.html
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Rich B on June 22, 2016, 07:51:38 pm

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/brexit-poll-new-survey-shows-leave-campaign-with-slim-lead-on-eve-of-eu-referendum-a3278521.html


Yay...
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Seven on June 22, 2016, 07:56:38 pm
IM GETTING FED UP WITH c*ntS ON FACEBOOK SAYING "IN OR OUT, SHAKE IT ALL ABOUT" IT WASNT FUNNY MONTHS AGO, STILL ISNT FUNNY NOW AND YOU ARE NOT THE FIRST TO DO IT.

Thankyou, as you were.....
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Simon. Not Steve or Nazimon on June 22, 2016, 08:02:42 pm
Odds are still about 3/1 out, 1/3 in. But apparently the Tories were apparently much longer odds to win last year so make of that what you will. (This looks like old people more likely to vote vs swing to status quo in referendums.)
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on June 22, 2016, 09:45:28 pm

IM GETTING FED UP WITH c*ntS ON FACEBOOK SAYING "IN OR OUT, SHAKE IT ALL ABOUT" IT WASNT FUNNY MONTHS AGO, STILL ISNT FUNNY NOW AND YOU ARE NOT THE FIRST TO DO IT.



I was first.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: DaveM on June 23, 2016, 12:13:49 am
If the vote is as close as suggested, then no-one will have any kind of idea what the end result will be.

I've said it before but I hope that common sense prevails.

Talking to some who are thinking of voting leave today, I get the impression that - rather like when fans campaign to get rid of a manager - there is an anticipation of a 'fun' period post vote debating what should/shouldn't happen and watching all the polictical and economic situations play out. I sensed that they dreaded an anti-climactic 'remain' result as...well things would just carry on (to some degree). That was quite depressing.

If the vote is super close though, will that really close the book on this in the way a decisive vote would - either way? I know the official line is that it will, but a 51%/49% result would not exactly demonstrate an over-riding will of the people would it?
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Jeff on June 23, 2016, 08:24:27 am
How does leaving the EU convention on Human Rights keep us safe from Shia law?
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Simon. Not Steve or Nazimon on June 23, 2016, 08:30:41 am

How does leaving the EU convention on Human Rights keep us safe from Shia law?


Good news on that. We are signatories of the European convention on HR regardless of our membership of the EU.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Jeff on June 23, 2016, 08:39:41 am
So how do I vote if I want some more Shia law?
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Jeff on June 23, 2016, 08:43:59 am
Bollocks, I've already voted this morning.

I'll have to invent my own Ingo Law and do that.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Simon. Not Steve or Nazimon on June 23, 2016, 08:58:48 am

So how do I vote if I want some more Shia law?


Move to London. Sadiq will have it implemented by Christmas (which he will, obviously, have banned).
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: benningtonred on June 23, 2016, 09:26:12 am
Been and voted remain this morning.

My current favourite FB conspiracy is that, if you are voting to leave you should take your own black pen to put the x in the box.  This prevents those dastardly soft remainers from rubbing out your pencil x and putting it in their box.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: tricky on June 23, 2016, 09:27:10 am
Take your own f*cking crayon, more like.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Jeff on June 23, 2016, 09:31:51 am

Move to London. Sadiq will have it implemented by Christmas (which he will, obviously, have banned).


Typical cockney b@stard, probably f*cked out his tree on shandy and smog.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: jp on June 23, 2016, 09:41:21 am
...and eels.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on June 23, 2016, 09:48:05 am

If the vote is as close as suggested, then no-one will have any kind of idea what the end result will be.

I've said it before but I hope that common sense prevails.

Talking to some who are thinking of voting leave today, I get the impression that - rather like when fans campaign to get rid of a manager - there is an anticipation of a 'fun' period post vote debating what should/shouldn't happen and watching all the polictical and economic situations play out. I sensed that they dreaded an anti-climactic 'remain' result as...well things would just carry on (to some degree). That was quite depressing.

If the vote is super close though, will that really close the book on this in the way a decisive vote would - either way? I know the official line is that it will, but a 51%/49% result would not exactly demonstrate an over-riding will of the people would it?


If Remain wins (and I think they will because the opinion polls seem to be close) then it will solve nothing as far as the Exit camp goes. The referendum itself is nothing but an attempt by Cameron to control his own party, which has spent the past two decades obsessing over something that is really irrelevant to the majority of the population. Of course, if you spend enough time blaming all the ills of the world on Europe then people will become agitated, but surely nobody expects the bulk of the Tory party to accept a vote to Remain? MY own MP has basically done nothing but ballache about Europe for the past twenty years; if the Remain vote wins then I feel like starting a local campaign to get him to shut the f*ck up and get on with the job he was elected to do.
Also, I'd like the government to get back to doing its job of governing the country (however poorly IMHO) which it has completely neglected for most of the year.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: jp on June 23, 2016, 10:07:44 am
Reasons to remain:

https://twitter.com/rowbar/status/745872885533843456?s=03
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Simon. Not Steve or Nazimon on June 23, 2016, 10:12:39 am
Looking at betting, the FTSE and the pound, it seems that "the money" is confidently expecting a win for 'remain'.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: noodlé on June 23, 2016, 10:36:48 am

I have gone from being solidly IN to not having a clue, to leaning towards OUT. Now I am a reluctant remainer. Reluctant because I think the EU is horribly, deeply flawed and I can't see it ever changing. But it is probably better than the alternative. Besides which, no matter how hideous I find many of the leading Remain campaigners, and how twisted their arguments, I cannot in all conscience allow myself to stand alongside Farage and the backward-looking, racist, xenophobic Sun newspaper and its thick and hopeless readership.


this. totally this.

i am concerned that the eu will increasingly tailor it's operation to the interests of the eurozone countries, and that this will be increasingly contrary to the interests of those countries who have (sensibly) chosen not to join the euro. but, thus far, this hasn't happened to a significant degree which is why 99% of the case for brexit is being made by the anti-immigrant crowd. if things go awry in the future then the other non-euro nations will have to join with the uk and stand up for their joint interests.. and if the eu doesn't address the issue *then* there's a strong case for the affected countries to pursue an alternative. but, right now, i simply see no way that leaving makes the uk (or the rest of the eu) better off.

so, whilst i've not voted because my papers never arrived, i've ended up as a 'hold your nose and hope for 'remain'' type kinda guy.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: DaveM on June 23, 2016, 10:53:26 am

this. totally this.

i am concerned that the eu will increasingly tailor it's operation to the interests of the eurozone countries, and that this will be increasingly contrary to the interests of those countries who have (sensibly) chosen not to join the euro. but, thus far, this hasn't happened to a significant degree which is why 99% of the case for brexit is being made by the anti-immigrant crowd. if things go awry in the future then the other non-euro nations will have to join with the uk and stand up for their joint interests.. and if the eu doesn't address the issue *then* there's a strong case for the affected countries to pursue an alternative. but, right now, i simply see no way that leaving makes the uk (or the rest of the eu) better off.

so, whilst i've not voted because my papers never arrived, i've ended up as a 'hold your nose and hope for 'remain'' type kinda guy.


And I think that is a totally valid position to take.

I sometimes wish the Remain camp, rather than just (rightly, in my view no matter how negative it seems) highlighting the risks that leaving would bring, would have also pushed the option to 'stand pat' and see how things play out longer term, whether improvements to the whole EU can be made from within (not talking about UK specific concessions) and whether the horror stories from the Leave side relating to impact of immigration hold true. Yes, there would be have to be a fight for another referendum in the future should that all go south, but in that scenario it would be pushing against an open door I suspect.

Instead people have been given two options - Leave (for good) or Remain (for good). There is a third, which is Remain (for now) which I don't think has been given the airtime it needs.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Simon. Not Steve or Nazimon on June 23, 2016, 11:02:49 am
There is also a fourth option, which was Boris's starting position - vote leave, get a better deal and then remain.

Neither leave nor remain are necessarily permanent positions. But it'll certainly be harder to rejoin after we left than to leave if we remain.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: garf on June 23, 2016, 11:08:06 am

And I think that is a totally valid position to take.

I sometimes wish the Remain camp, rather than just (rightly, in my view no matter how negative it seems) highlighting the risks that leaving would bring, would have also pushed the option to 'stand pat' and see how things play out longer term, whether improvements to the whole EU can be made from within (not talking about UK specific concessions) and whether the horror stories from the Leave side relating to impact of immigration hold true. Yes, there would be have to be a fight for another referendum in the future should that all go south, but in that scenario it would be pushing against an open door I suspect.

Instead people have been given two options - Leave (for good) or Remain (for good). There is a third, which is Remain (for now) which I don't think has been given the airtime it needs.


And you don't think that the uncertainty and the continuation of the current poisonous atmosphere a vote for this third way might lead to would be a bad thing?
Also I can imagine a scenario where leave gets a majority over the other 2 alternatives separately, but not combined and then we have endless crap about how the majority voted to leave. Daft though that would be you have to admit the leave side are pretty good at getting people to believe made up crap.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Andyp on June 23, 2016, 11:13:40 am
Of course no membership/ treaty is set in stone but I don't agree that the UK should adopt the position we have had for a while of threatening to leave regularly if we don't get our own way. We should either leave or remain with the positive view that we are in for the long term and willing to work together for the benefit of all. Think of a marriage where one partner was always threatening to leave if you didn't agree with them. The rest of Europe has rightly got well miffed with the UK because of this. We are a central part of the process not some outsiders who 'Europe' does things to.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: garf on June 23, 2016, 11:14:03 am

If the vote is super close though, will that really close the book on this in the way a decisive vote would - either way? I know the official line is that it will, but a 51%/49% result would not exactly demonstrate an over-riding will of the people would it?


Given that the leave vote is made up of loads of factions many of whom would not really care about the EU beyond having been told it is the cause of their own particular itch, it should not really matter. Perhaps we can have a competition on Blue Peter to design a new flag, that would address the concerns of at least one group.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: DaveM on June 23, 2016, 11:18:14 am
I wasn't suggesting that Remain (for now) was an official option. More that a vote for Remain could also be a remote to continue to see how things pan out, and not an all-or-nothing decision
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: garf on June 23, 2016, 11:44:22 am

I wasn't suggesting that Remain (for now) was an official option. More that a vote for Remain could also be a remote to continue to see how things pan out, and not an all-or-nothing decision


So basically the same as Remain.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: DaveM on June 23, 2016, 11:47:33 am

So basically the same as Remain.


yep

My point is that a vote to leave will be to fully leave for good. Should we ever want to rejoin it would take forever and we would not have concessions such as remaining out of the eurozone etc

But a vote to remain is not to say we don't have to re-evaluate in the future (I'm talking 10, 20, 30 years time here).

It's been framed as a one-shot vote for both sides, which I don't think is really accurate
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Muswell on June 23, 2016, 11:56:16 am
I decided not to vote, given I left the country 5 1/2 years ago, having now received my green card the chnances of returning have lessened to almost nil. That combined with being incredibly aware every time I return how much it's changed, I don't feel  that I should.

This article to me sums the whole situation perfectly http://gu.com/p/4mfnz/sb
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: ned on June 23, 2016, 12:10:40 pm

I have gone from being solidly IN to not having a clue, to leaning towards OUT. Now I am a reluctant remainer. Reluctant because I think the EU is horribly, deeply flawed and I can't see it ever changing. But it is probably better than the alternative. Besides which, no matter how hideous I find many of the leading Remain campaigners, and how twisted their arguments, I cannot in all conscience allow myself to stand alongside Farage and the backward-looking, racist, xenophobic Sun newspaper and its thick and hopeless readership.


Best never to ask for advice from someone who might work there then. *winky thing*
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Jeff on June 23, 2016, 12:20:01 pm
GET OUT THE BUNTING!!
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: noodlé on June 23, 2016, 12:50:45 pm
one thing i'll say about this whole thing is that of all the places i've tried to follow the debate, and range of opinions thereon, this place has been, by quite a distance, the most diverse.. yet balanced.. source. my twitter and facebook feeds are jam-packed with 30-something urbanites (strong remain), my main media sources (uk and aus) are centre-left (pretending to be balanced, but clearly remains). i read a decent range of blogs across the economic spectrum - but the regular contributors at each one tended to mass around the same opinion as the blogger.

everyone is here because we support the same football team. we're mainly white blokes, but there's nothing much tying us together politically or economically. there's a range of ages, different backgrounds, present geographies etc etc. i hope everyone else values that about this place. it's not, and never has been, a bubble or an echo-chamber. the only thing we all agree on is that tricky is a bit of a c*nt.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Guru on June 23, 2016, 12:55:59 pm

we're mainly white blokes


f*ck off racist!
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Jüânfrân on June 23, 2016, 12:58:11 pm

Best never to ask for advice from someone who might work there then. *winky thing*

You're alive!!!!
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: tricky on June 23, 2016, 12:59:58 pm
A bit?

I'd like to think that one of the weaknesses of this place, is also something of a strength...we may be old and tired and relatively familiar, and there may be little in the way of new blood to inject new life....but we tolerate and debate in a way that's to a degree died out in the rest of the internet as a result of 'popularity'.

I don't think you could create talkback now, and I don't think you would want to. We are almost entirely a time capsule of our own  making. Given the demographic here, it's somewhat surprising to me that there are so many considering leave.  By our nature (middle aged, generally having beaten the averages of 'the system') you would expect a strong aversion to change, and a deep attachment to an entrenched system which has done right by us.

Very worrying.  As a group we have little to feel disenfranchised about. If some of us can want to slit our own throats, while jumping off a cliff, I dread to think what the rest of the country will do.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: tricky on June 23, 2016, 01:01:18 pm

f*ck off racist!


I don't think he was undermining your right to mainly be a dusky fella...merely pointing out that most of us tend to turn pink in the sun....assuming we ever get to see any ever again.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: noodlé on June 23, 2016, 01:10:40 pm

I don't think he was undermining your right to mainly be a dusky fella...merely pointing out that most of us tend to turn pink in the sun....assuming we ever get to see any ever again.


this being here, i assumed that was a joke.. as the majority white-male-ness of talkback is a matter of record.. and i actually demonstrated how amazingly not-racist i am by acknowledging that the broad racial homogeny of the board is a limiting factor on any claim to be a representative group.. whilst also clearly recognising that some of the resident mongs are, indeed, special diversity flowers.

i think a LADY came here once too.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Lessred on June 23, 2016, 01:30:30 pm



i think a LADY came here once too.


Did we all stand around giggling and blushing?
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: jp on June 23, 2016, 01:31:54 pm
Pretty much.

There are/were two lady members but they aren't spotted these days.

Also Dave Rave's stalker used to come here, and she was a female lady woman.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: jp on June 23, 2016, 01:33:00 pm

GET OUT THE BUNTING!!


What has Graham done now?
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: DaveM on June 23, 2016, 01:41:19 pm


Very worrying.  As a group we have little to feel disenfranchised about. If some of us can want to slit our own throats, while jumping off a cliff, I dread to think what the rest of the country will do.


Just had a convo with my elderly neighbour who is a lovely bloke, but who voted leave as a postal vote.

Asked him his rationale and received a stream-of-conciousness rant about a number of things but it seemed to mainly revolve around a convoluted hatred of money markets, polititians and there were a number of barbed comments about China in there somewhere, how Germany could basically do one and something about Mexicans.

I couldn't really counter the arguments as frankly I didn't understand them, and I'm not sure he did either!

I did ask him though, if the standard of living and general quality of life is so bad at the moment and if we weren't having a referendum right now, whether he would be sitting there and brooding about wanting to leave the EU.

The answer of course was no.

The referendum has opened a pandora's box where people who are reasonably comfortable and don't have many gripes, are suddenly told they *should* have gripes and concerns and are told there is only one solution. A few buttons being pressed here and there about completely unrelated issues and hey presto - you get a venomous hatred of everything the EU stands for and an urgency to get a 'leave' vote in.

I think he was a touch annoyed when I finished the conversation cordially, but added 'Right, off to place my vote to offset yours' :)
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Russ on June 23, 2016, 01:47:07 pm

I decided not to vote, given I left the country 5 1/2 years ago, having now received my green card the chnances of returning have lessened to almost nil. That combined with being incredibly aware every time I return how much it's changed, I don't feel  that I should.


Exactly the position I took.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: garf on June 23, 2016, 01:57:15 pm

I don't think he was undermining your right to mainly be a dusky fella...merely pointing out that most of us tend to turn pink in the sun....assuming we ever get to see any ever again.


Bloody global warming, at least a leave vote will bring back the good old English weather.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Russ on June 23, 2016, 01:58:35 pm

Bloody global warming, at least a leave vote will bring back the good old English weather.


Canada isn't part of the EU and the weather here is glorious. Confirmed that Leave therefore makes complete sense.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: BrettWilliams on June 23, 2016, 02:05:19 pm

Just had a convo with my elderly neighbour who is a lovely bloke, but who voted leave as a postal vote.

Asked him his rationale and received a stream-of-conciousness rant about a number of things but it seemed to mainly revolve around a convoluted hatred of money markets, polititians and there were a number of barbed comments about China in there somewhere, how Germany could basically do one and something about Mexicans.

I couldn't really counter the arguments as frankly I didn't understand them, and I'm not sure he did either!

I did ask him though, if the standard of living and general quality of life is so bad at the moment and if we weren't having a referendum right now, whether he would be sitting there and brooding about wanting to leave the EU.

The answer of course was no.

The referendum has opened a pandora's box where people who are reasonably comfortable and don't have many gripes, are suddenly told they *should* have gripes and concerns and are told there is only one solution. A few buttons being pressed here and there about completely unrelated issues and hey presto - you get a venomous hatred of everything the EU stands for and an urgency to get a 'leave' vote in.

I think he was a touch annoyed when I finished the conversation cordially, but added 'Right, off to place my vote to offset yours' :)


Old people should have been excluded from the vote. Too many of them likely to vote Leave for no other reason than out-dated, slightly right-wing tendencies, and they'll all be dead soon anyway - well before the sh!tstorm they've helped create comes to fruition.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: jp on June 23, 2016, 02:07:41 pm
According to Scottish Nationalists, it was old people who swayed things by voting against independence two years ago. So maybe old people aren't all that bad.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Richoriginal on June 23, 2016, 02:13:28 pm

I don't think he was undermining your right to mainly be a dusky fella...merely pointing out that most of us tend to turn pink in the sun....assuming we ever get to see any ever again.


It's lovely and sunny in Leed today. Am turning a fabulous shade of pink in millennium sq working on this

http://invisibleflock.com/portfolio/105db/
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on June 23, 2016, 03:25:16 pm


The referendum has opened a pandora's box where people who are reasonably comfortable and don't have many gripes, are suddenly told they *should* have gripes and concerns and are told there is only one solution. A few buttons being pressed here and there about completely unrelated issues and hey presto - you get a venomous hatred of everything the EU stands for and an urgency to get a 'leave' vote in.



Proabably the best thing I've read about the whole referendum.
I will not invoke Godwin's Law, but using what is effectively a xenophobic campaign (note that the polls did not start to shift towards Leave until they popped the immigration cork) to blame all the current ills of the country on immigration has worrying historical parallels. We are not alone in this: across the EU the picture is the same. The irony here is that the countries across the bloc that we are voting about are all suffering from the same issues; the problem is not the club of which we are a member, it is the ruling classes who have implemented a system which skews far too much towards the corporation and nowhere near enough towards the individual or society.
IF I were able to pin BJ down for more than a second (I've just today realised what it is I really dislike about BJ beyond the naked opportunism - he's a shifty f*cker; look at his eyes when he is on TV and try not to turn to stone) I would ask him whether he would sign up to TTIP if the UK voted to Leave. The answer would be revealing...
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: DaveM on June 23, 2016, 03:28:14 pm

It's lovely and sunny in Leed today. Am turning a fabulous shade of pink in millennium sq working on this

http://invisibleflock.com/portfolio/105db/


the f*ck is all that about????

You get to walk around and hear Leeds United fans shouting about people being c*nts, or something. Without them being there?

Whatever it is, it sounds like a splendid thing to be 'doing'... :)
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Guru on June 23, 2016, 04:01:35 pm

this being here, i assumed that was a joke.. as the majority white-male-ness of talkback is a matter of record.. and i actually demonstrated how amazingly not-racist i am by acknowledging that the broad racial homogeny of the board is a limiting factor on any claim to be a representative group.. whilst also clearly recognising that some of the resident mongs are, indeed, special diversity flowers.

i think a LADY came here once too.


yes. yes it was.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Seán on June 23, 2016, 04:25:20 pm
I will be in Millennium Sq. in Leed on 23rd July.

I dare say I may call people c*nts.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Rich B on June 23, 2016, 04:26:17 pm
Have we left yet?
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: graham on June 23, 2016, 04:33:59 pm

Proabably the best thing I've read about the whole referendum.
I will not invoke Godwin's Law, but using what is effectively a xenophobic campaign (note that the polls did not start to shift towards Leave until they popped the immigration cork) to blame all the current ills of the country on immigration has worrying historical parallels. We are not alone in this: across the EU the picture is the same. The irony here is that the countries across the bloc that we are voting about are all suffering from the same issues; the problem is not the club of which we are a member, it is the ruling classes who have implemented a system which skews far too much towards the corporation and nowhere near enough towards the individual or society.
IF I were able to pin BJ down for more than a second (I've just today realised what it is I really dislike about BJ beyond the naked opportunism - he's a shifty f*cker; look at his eyes when he is on TV and try not to turn to stone) I would ask him whether he would sign up to TTIP if the UK voted to Leave. The answer would be revealing...


Back in May, he called it Churchillian. Now his disdain is encapsulated in a ( probably apocryphal) story about Feta.  It's here (http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/14/boris-johnson-accused-of-dishonest-gymnastics-over-ttip-u-turn)
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on June 23, 2016, 05:22:47 pm

Back in May, he called it Churchillian. Now his disdain is encapsulated in a ( probably apocryphal) story about Feta.  It's here (http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/14/boris-johnson-accused-of-dishonest-gymnastics-over-ttip-u-turn)


So he supports the concept, but wants to go alone? Shouldn't be a surprise. However, I don't see how surrendering our rights to multinational corporations represents retaking our sovereignty or am I missing something?
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Russ on June 23, 2016, 05:29:01 pm

So he supports the concept, but wants to go alone? Shouldn't be a surprise. However, I don't see how surrendering our rights to multinational corporations represents retaking our sovereignty or am I missing something?


"Welcome to today's broadcast of The Boris Johnson Government brought to you by Accenture."
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Guru on June 23, 2016, 05:31:41 pm

So he supports the concept, but wants to go alone? Shouldn't be a surprise. However, I don't see how surrendering our rights to multinational corporations represents retaking our sovereignty or am I missing something?


Don't worry your pretty little head

#voteleavetakecontrol

That is all you need to know. Other than don't give in to #projectfear, remember today is #INDEPENDENCE DAY!!!!!!!
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: tricky on June 23, 2016, 05:42:28 pm

Don't worry your pretty little head

#voteleavetakecontrol

That is all you need to know. Other than don't give in to #projectfear, remember today is #INDEPENDENCE DAY!!!!!!!


A part of me actually would be as amused as hell if we did vote to leave, and these muppets got to taste what they had served up.....of course that's the part of me that doesn't particularly want to work ever again and would like to have my house repossessed.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: DaveM on June 23, 2016, 05:45:37 pm

A part of me actually would be as amused as hell if we did vote to leave, and these muppets got to taste what they had served up.....of course that's the part of me that doesn't particularly want to work ever again and would like to have my house repossessed.


Of course, when the 'scaremongering' warnings come true, none of the people who voted for leave would consider themselves remotely culpable. They would continue to blame everything on the EU, immigrants, the government...etc

It would indeed be interesting to observe though, in the same way I always think a nuclear explosion would be interesting to observe from a (massive) distance
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Richoriginal on June 23, 2016, 05:49:29 pm

the f*ck is all that about????

You get to walk around and hear Leeds United fans shouting about people being c*nts, or something. Without them being there?

Whatever it is, it sounds like a splendid thing to be 'doing'... :)


Pretty much. though they had to do some clever editing to get rid of the "Get the fook in Leeds" you could clearly here.

It's actually not bad, you can stand in the middle of millenium sq and hear what its like for the players. The speaker stacks are arranged around the edge of the square and recreate the 'home' end and 'away' end. The Leed match was the home game against Charlton, so it's a bit sh!t compared to the Ghent match which is way more lively and atmospheric.

But essentially it's all quite arty bollocks. But they pay pretty well and I've spent the day in the sunshine.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: tricky on June 23, 2016, 05:53:44 pm
Installation Art: A football match with all the athletic and emotional endeavour removed....as well as all the active participants.

It's like they go out of their way to reinforce my philistine prejudices.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on June 23, 2016, 05:56:00 pm

Installation Art: A football match with all the athletic and emotional endeavour removed....as well as all the active participants.

It's like they go out of their way to reinforce my philistine prejudices.


It's probably better than watching Forest will be in the coming season.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Richoriginal on June 23, 2016, 05:57:52 pm

Installation Art: A football match with all the athletic and emotional endeavour removed....as well as all the active participants.

It's like they go out of their way to reinforce my philistine prejudices.


But you could imagine how brilliantly Forest were playing.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: tricky on June 23, 2016, 05:59:25 pm

But you could imagine how brilliantly Forest were playing.


Yes, I'm rather afraid that I could.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Simon. Not Steve or Nazimon on June 23, 2016, 07:58:34 pm

A part of me actually would be as amused as hell if we did vote to leave, and these muppets got to taste what they had served up.....of course that's the part of me that doesn't particularly want to work ever again and would like to have my house repossessed.


I saw a suggestion that Cameron should invoke article 50 tomorrow morning, then resign and leave Boris to sort out the mess.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: JellyHead on June 23, 2016, 07:58:56 pm
Just went and predicted out.  I reckon iceland will have us.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: lurker7 on June 23, 2016, 08:11:01 pm
Regarding the whole Pencilgate thing, the shares of Societe BIC are up 1.5% today.  That's a lot of pens being sold.  Mind you they also make... Tipp Ex.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Russ on June 23, 2016, 08:43:49 pm
From some bloke on Facebook:

Quote
Unlike everyone else, who seemingly overnight has become a champion of European legislation and a bastion of the legalities of immigration, I genuinely know f*ck all about politics.

Honestly. Can't even tell you the difference between labour, conservatives or the other ones. Is it Lib dems? I don't know what they do. Tories are c*nts though... That's literally the extent of my knowledge.

It just doesn't interest me because, and I'm aware that this is painfully apathetic and stupid, but it's boring and I don't see how any of it's actually set up to help me. If I was a bank or building society or a business that operated on the global market or just a c*nt who went to Eton and fancied making all my pig diddling mates peers or something then yeah, I'd give more of a sh!t. But I'm not. I'm just a bloke who works in a call centre 8 hours a day and whether we're in or out of Europe I'll still have £68 pound a month to pay for bus fares. I'm trapped in renting so I couldn't give less of a sh!t about "community" because I'm not really part of one because I might move again in 6 month so what's point? I'll still be skint either way, the concept of owning a house will remain a sick joke and I'll still have to work until I'm a billion and 30 just to retire on the £8.47 I've got saved up in my work pension (yes I'm aware all of these are political points... Irony's funny, isn't it?) but governments aren't set up for people like me... They're set up for people who are either tragically, tragically poor or people who are almost belligerently rich. Even if we save money by coming out, who gives a sh!t? What, we're suddenly going to start looking after old folk and buying hospitals are we? Wont we need the four food banks in Leeds anymore? You talk actual piss. Any money saved will go into buying more pigs or moats for duck houses.

The point for me is this though; A university professor of 12 years, what has got an actual PhD, specialising in European constitutional law and the relationship between the EU and its member states, specifically the UK, the single market and the free movement of people has said its a f*cking sh!t idea to leave the EU.

Surely that's enough then? Let's agree with him, surely? He probably knows what's chong and what's not chong.

I mean I know you've got a BTEC in sports science and, yeah... sure, your lass has got her level 1 hairdressing certificate and you both went to Tossa De Mar once for holiday but his points seem to come across better than yours somehow. Like, his arguments are built around solid premises and formulated on numbers and research and sh!t whereas yours are like "Yeah well The Sun says all black people are w@nkers, so...".

The best way I can think of it is in terms of the biscuit club at work. Everybody pays in and everybody gets nice biscuits. Sure you can get your own biscuits if you want but it's a lot of f*cking about and you'll only have to share them anyway. What, are you gonna legitimately eat them all to yourself in an office are you Sharon? Right well that's why you wear sports socks and can't find a husband. Yeah, not everyone gets the biscuits they want all the time but if your choice is sh!t biscuits sometimes or no biscuits ever then it's a f*cking no brainer. What if you want help to get biscuits but nobody cares because they're sorted for Jaffas now? What about your relationship with people who are still in biscuit club? You think they'll be happy with you tapping Hob Nobs off them everyday because you forgot to go to Jacksons at the weekend? Get to f*ck. "Oh no, loads of new people want to join in with biscuit club now!" So? More people means more / better biscuits. Yeah you might have to share more but what are you, 5? If you don't want to share biscuits then f*ck off back to Russia you pinko commie swine. Plus, why do you think they WANT to join? It's because these biscuits are brilliant and they haven't got any. Sometimes people do Ramadan and can't eat biscuits while the suns up... Who gives a sh!t? Don't have biscuits then. It's ok... Just have them later. Take them home for when suns gone down for all I care. And yeah, some people try and blag it... They don't pay what they should or they eat more than you but you don't just f*ck biscuits off all together because of a couple of dickheads. Grow up you babies. "He hasn't paid for biscuits and by rights he's eating my property!". Yeah... Jason's not paying this week because he's got dick cancer and he's got better things to worry about. Let him have a biscuit you tight b@stard. f*ck me. Plus his wife's got alopecia. Difficult home life mate. Give him a biscuit while he sorts his head out.

I'm just gonna go with the PhD bloke to be honest because he's smarter than everyone else and I f*cking love biscuits me.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Simon. Not Steve or Nazimon on June 23, 2016, 10:03:26 pm
Farage reckons remain have won.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: garf on June 23, 2016, 10:07:41 pm

Farage reckons remain have won.


Given that there are no exit polls (I think); that has to just be posturing surely?
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: lurker7 on June 23, 2016, 10:19:43 pm
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/23/eu-referendum-will-it-be-brexit-exit-poll-and-results-live/

A new YouGov poll released at 10pm gives REMAIN a 4-point lead:

REMAIN 52% LEAVE 48%

Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Jüânfrân on June 23, 2016, 11:32:44 pm
Just spent the day running a polling station on the edge of Sheffield.
Lots of Brexiteers all bringing their own pens. One bloke came in and just ranted at me about why we have pens not pencils, then left.

Very strong turnout. Noticeable increase in new registrations, Brits abroad (fat, bald, wearing shorts) and white van men coming in to vote.

Just on my station, I'd be worried.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: BrettWilliams on June 23, 2016, 11:35:20 pm

Very strong turnout.


I turned up at our local polling station about quarter past nine. Count staff estimated turnout there to be at least 80 per cent.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: JimShady on June 24, 2016, 12:41:48 am
Early results look very bad
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Dave Rave on June 24, 2016, 12:47:46 am
Do they? The BBC website tells me there have been 5 results so far, 4 of which were majority remain. It's just the weight of the Sunderland vote that sees leave a couple of thousand ahead. Still 377 results to declare, so toughen up, Princess.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: JimShady on June 24, 2016, 12:58:16 am
Listening to the analysis it does yes. Which is why the pound has gone into freefall. Sunderland was expected to be small win for leave, but it was very big. Newcastle was expected to be decent win for remain... But was very small. Given their context, yes, I think it looks bad.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: tricky on June 24, 2016, 01:00:38 am
Never underestimate idiots. Give them a say and you only have yourself to blame. This has already cost us. It could be catastrophic. I blame the Tories.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: JimShady on June 24, 2016, 01:02:36 am
They're saying on the BBC that the weather in London looks to have had a big effect on turnout. Which is pretty awful news for the in campaign
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Dave Rave on June 24, 2016, 01:03:38 am
I've said for years that the world is full of c*nts. Whatever happens in the neverendum that won't change.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Chicago on June 24, 2016, 04:47:09 am
We are so fcuked!!!!!!




Chicago: sad.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Vennox on June 24, 2016, 05:59:07 am

We are so fcuked!!!!!!




Chicago: sad.

Why we?

They are f*cking idiots.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Richoriginal on June 24, 2016, 06:36:27 am
Our system is f*cked. The only party that wanted an exit was ukip who have only one MP. Clearly, the commons are not fit for purpose.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: RD on June 24, 2016, 06:37:16 am
The vote isn't legally binding.....
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: tricky on June 24, 2016, 06:47:43 am
Parliament isnt a big worry. What with the pound in free fall and interest rates having to climb as a result of inflation. The cost of everything is about to go up. A lot.

f*cking idiots. I blame the tories.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Mike B. on June 24, 2016, 06:55:47 am

Our system is f*cked. The only party that wanted an exit was ukip who have only one MP. Clearly, the commons are not fit for purpose.


In what way is one person one vote f*cked? Unless you didn't like the result.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Simon. Not Steve or Nazimon on June 24, 2016, 06:57:38 am

Parliament isnt a big worry. What with the pound in free fall and interest rates having to climb as a result of inflation. The cost of everything is about to go up. A lot.

f*cking idiots. I blame the tories.


f*ck that. I blame the people.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: lurker7 on June 24, 2016, 07:06:32 am

We are so fcuked!!!!!!




Chicago: sad.


Calm down dear, it's only a Referendum!  We've only swapped a trading bloc with favourable terms for 44% of our exports, some employment protection and rights in areas like child leave, access to world markets as part of a 500 million large economic area, legal recourse to the ECHR, and Europe-wide product and environmental standards for a free-for-all little Englander paradise of none of that.

Plus a Second Scottish Referendum is in the offing, and Northern Irish Nationalism will take off as cross-border trade with the South will suffer due to tariff barriers going up across the 6 counties.  Gerry Adams will be pleased.

Hang on, we're f*cked.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Jeff on June 24, 2016, 07:13:46 am

f*ck that. I blame the people.


Likewise. We in Rushcliffe did our bit. What about the rest of you racist b@stards?
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Richoriginal on June 24, 2016, 07:30:46 am
Tower hamlets did our bit.

In two hours the UK economy has lost $350 BILLION. That’s equivalent to 40 years of EU contributions.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Simon. Not Steve or Nazimon on June 24, 2016, 07:32:24 am

Likewise. We in Rushcliffe did our bit. What about the rest of you racist b@stards?


The racist b@stards here have gone 60/40 in favour of leaving.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Simon. Not Steve or Nazimon on June 24, 2016, 07:33:38 am

Tower hamlets did our bit.

In two hours the UK economy has lost $350 BILLION. That’s equivalent to 40 years of EU contributions.


What does 'the UK economy' mean though? The stock market?

Does this mean we aren't going to get a new hospital a week after all?
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Lessred on June 24, 2016, 07:36:07 am
Short term we will lose, like a big recession. Medium to long term - who the f*ck knows. How can people vote for such uncertainty?
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: charlie on June 24, 2016, 08:02:05 am
Any big recession we get will in part be due to the scare tactics of Cameron and Osborne pre-referendum. It'll be a self fulfilling prophecy. I expect today will be a day of massive upheaval.  It's up to the politicians from both sides to resist the urge for triumphalism or sniping and sort out a way forwards - to emphasise that we haven't turned our back on Europe, just left the EU. It is what it is, as the great man would say, and we all have to deal with the fallout.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Simon. Not Steve or Nazimon on June 24, 2016, 08:23:50 am
Down goes Cameron!
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: JRs Cigarette on June 24, 2016, 08:32:35 am
Hardly surprising, who'd want to try and sort out a mess of someone else's making.  Would have got constant grief for not leaving properly.  Let's see how Boris does.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Rich B on June 24, 2016, 08:53:01 am
Blame me, all my fault.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Duck for Cover on June 24, 2016, 08:53:24 am

Parliament isnt a big worry. What with the pound in free fall and interest rates having to climb as a result of inflation. The cost of everything is about to go up. A lot.

f*cking idiots. I blame the tories.


Agree with all bar the last line. 

Those Tory heartlands of Barnsley, Rotherham, Coventry, Sunderland et al voted massively to get out.  This is not a racist right wing problem alone, it's a small island affliction that many from both sides suffer from.  Too many deluded muppets believing we can get the days of the Empire back.  I wish I could get them to pay the extra I'l be paying in Income Tax and VAT needed to make up the short falls.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Rich B on June 24, 2016, 08:55:53 am
Rightly or wrongly the countries ( Leave brigade) prime concern was the immigration problem. Cameron et al completely ignored this and concentrated on Project Fear.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: RD on June 24, 2016, 09:02:59 am
UKRIP
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Simon. Not Steve or Nazimon on June 24, 2016, 09:05:36 am

Rightly or wrongly the countries ( Leave brigade) prime concern was the immigration problem. Cameron et al completely ignored this and concentrated on Project Fear.


We'll see what happens but I suspect that the immigration problem is going to be far from resolved. We'll have to have a trade agreement with the EU and that'll almost certainly mean allowing people to come here to work (so that we can go there to work).

All those pensioners in Spain are going to find it lot harder to get treatment when they get ill, so you'd expect a fair number of them to come back and drain the NHS.

When we don't return to some imaginary utopia, I wonder who will get the blame?
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Jeff on June 24, 2016, 09:06:34 am
Hopefully the over 60's.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Lessred on June 24, 2016, 09:07:21 am
My f*cking Father I hope - proud to have voted out, w@nker
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: noodlé on June 24, 2016, 09:08:13 am
if jeremy corbyn won an election the markets would go to sh!t and most of the people currently crowing about what they're doing now would be citing it as evidence that evil capitalism fears a world in which it is not pandered to by those in power.

this is a massive overreaction to the forthcoming period of uncertainty. the currency devaluation will have real effects as imports will be more expensive and the aforementioned uncertainty will deter the inward investment that should otherwise come to enjoy a cheaper currency.

the stock market fall, aside from the impact on near-term savers and retirees, means nothing.. it's how it responds as the future unfolds that matters as that's inductive of how the real economy will be expected to develop.

my suggestion.. as soon as someone has the position to do so the uk should announce that it is open to unilateral free trade with the EU, and the rest of the world. our trade will only be damaged if people decide to start putting up barriers... but the developed world is simply not moving in that direction.

leaving is either brave or stupid. how those two are balanced from here on is in the control of politicians in both the uk and europe. they just have to not be a bunch of c*nts and suddenly i see the huge flaw in my thinking here.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Simon. Not Steve or Nazimon on June 24, 2016, 09:08:43 am
Apparently, with the drop in the value of the pound, we are no longer the 5th biggest economy in the world.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Richoriginal on June 24, 2016, 09:18:04 am
Can I have my country back now please?
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Guru on June 24, 2016, 09:54:45 am

Any big recession we get will in part be due to the scare tactics of Cameron and Osborne pre-referendum. It'll be a self fulfilling prophecy. I expect today will be a day of massive upheaval.  It's up to the politicians from both sides to resist the urge for triumphalism or sniping and sort out a way forwards - to emphasise that we haven't turned our back on Europe, just left the EU. It is what it is, as the great man would say, and we all have to deal with the fallout.


f*ck. Right. Off.

The pound was in freefall all night...it needed no encouragement from any Remainer. And I see no Brexiteer in any hurry to sort this the f*ck out, rather they are more interested in waving union jacks and crowing about Independence Day. As for triumphalism, Farage made 4 triumphalist speeches before 7am, banging the dirty foreigners drum incessantly. He is a total c*nt.

I am glad Cameron has resigned because he brought an unnecessary referendum on which has clearly divided the country and will have repercussions socially and economically for years. I am fearful that it will leave a power vacuum for a uber right winger, elected by the 150,000 members of the Tory Party.

Now you have got rid of the European immigrants, who are you going to blame next for your troubles? Brexiteers created this new dawn, I am eager to see how they sort it out.

Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Lessred on June 24, 2016, 10:04:38 am
Don't worry King Boris will ride top the rescue.

I presume UKKIP will now disband as their single issue party has now been made redundant.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: noodlé on June 24, 2016, 10:20:36 am

I am glad Cameron has resigned because he brought an unnecessary referendum on which has clearly divided the country


nah. the divisions were already there. the strength of the ukip vote in the regions in the last election (and various ballots beforehand) told us that. what did everyone think would happen when the remaining members of those communities who held their nose and voted labour were going to do in a vote outside of the usual tribes?

there was a clear mandate for this vote, and the result consolidates it's legitimacy. but it was close. it's incumbent on the politicians now to remember that almost half of the country doesn't want this. it's a mandate for a change, but not for a revolution. farage's crowing is vile. cameron was dignified (and corbyn has been eloquent and measured too). we're waiting to hear from boris. is he the dickhead he enjoyed acting like, or is there a statesman in there?
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: garf on June 24, 2016, 10:29:57 am

Rightly or wrongly the countries ( Leave brigade) prime concern was the immigration problem. Cameron et al completely ignored this and concentrated on Project Fear.


And there was me thinking it was a constitutional question about the political and economic structures that affect our lives and yet all along it was lazy racism.
Who would have thought it?
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Rich B on June 24, 2016, 10:38:24 am
They didn't heed the warnings from the last election when ( guessing ) many folks voted as normal for labour instead of Ukip and now with the party shackles off they voted for what they believe in
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: tricky on June 24, 2016, 10:43:29 am

......farage's crowing is vile. cameron was dignified (and corbyn has been eloquent and measured too). we're waiting to hear from boris. is he the dickhead he enjoyed acting like, or is there a statesman in there?


...ooh, ooh, I know this one, sir....

Dickhead.

Be under no illusions, the withdrawal of investment from the UK is under way. I know people in the banking sector who, aside from the normal trading and speculation around projected outcomes, actually set up emergency rooms overnight last night to start pulling out in the event of a vote leave.

Of course few actually thought any multucultural educated western democracy could vote in such a way. Nevertheless, plans were in place and will grind into action.

Expect much more value to be wiped off UK PLC, inward investment to dry up pretty much overnight, and the trickle of skills outward to turn into a full blown gush. Those dirty foreigners don't feel welcome, and will take up other opportunities in the EU. Which really is going to put pressure on the health service if 25% of it's staff leave.

The tories bought an election by pandering to ill-educated xenophobic fear.  Within their own party, and across the country. They legitimised a political throwback to 20th century values of 'us' and 'them', and they divided to rule. Boris, the c*nt, hopped on a bandwagon that it's hard to believe that he seriously buys into intellectually, recognising an opportunity to step on someone elses face to get higher up the pole.  Be under no doubt....our faces are a long long way further down that pole, supporting a lot of weight, that isn't going to be relieved any time soon.

It is hard to believe that there is going to be anything other than a deep recession...and it's likely to be long and sustained. Unusually it is likely to be accompanied by a rising trade defecit, high interest rates, spiralling prices, at the same time as reduced consumption. Our standard of living is likely to take a huge drop....off a cliff sort of a drop. will we climb out of it and flourish? At some point.  We will sink to a sustainable level and then carve out a living at that level.  It just wont be currently where we are.  It wont be very nice, for a very large bunch of people.  Anyone seriously expecting anything to actually get better from here is deranged.

My application for Croatian nationality is in the post.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: garf on June 24, 2016, 10:44:00 am

They didn't heed the warnings from the last election when ( guessing ) many folks voted as normal for labour instead of Ukip and now with the party shackles off they voted for what they believe in


Yes, and if as it appears what they believe in is racism then they should be ashamed.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on June 24, 2016, 10:45:11 am
I am actually shaking with anger this morning. Absolutely apoplectic for so many reasons.
1. The f*cking Tories for allowing a bunch of right-wing scum to drive the government to holding this vote
2. The Remain campaign for forcing the debate to be so negative and allowing the Leave campaign to focus on immigration
3. The f*cking electorate for buying the whole f*cking thing.

Do I want to live in a nasty, xenophobic country so inward looking that it still hasn't realised that we were already slipping towards mediocrity? I'm not sure that I f*cking do. It's an utter disgrace that the likes of Farage have been allowed to hold the country to ransom by insisting that all our problems are caused by immigration and the EU.
Shame on the other parties for f*cking allowing it to happen. This should have been nipped in the bud years ago.
The end result is that we have a country that is now split just as badly as the Tory party. Can I blame those areas that voted strongly to leave? Not really. They have been ignored by both big parties since the early 80s and this is the first time they felt that they had a voice thanks to our ludicrous voting system. Of course, they have cut their nose off to spite their face; I thought the government was already right-wing; they aint seen nothing yet and now they are going to lose their EU funding. DO they really think that this bunch of self-serving charlatans are going to replace the EU funding? Let's ask them in five years when all their services have gone and everyone is on a zero-hours contract.
This is a true constitutional crisis, make no mistake. Scotland should, and probably will, have another referendum and will, rightly IMHO, vote to leave. In Northern Ireland I know from first hand accounts from family that the Nationalist community is absolutely livid. Sinn Fein will call for a referendum for a united IReland. Probably won't happen, but they too receive a lot of funding from the EU. Given the history there and the fact that tensions remain high I really fear for what is to come. N. Ireland is currently (relatively) peaceful, but sectarian tensions is bubbling just under the surface.
So, we will be left with a jingoistic England and Wales, N. Ireland in turmoil and f*ck all else. Bravo Cameron; you just pipped every other Prime Minister to the post of worst leader ever.


Right, I'm off to get mine and my daughter's photos done so I can send off my Irish passport application today. I'm not joking when I say that me and the missus are seriously contemplating moving away from this soon to be backwater.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Guru on June 24, 2016, 11:14:06 am

I am actually shaking with anger this morning. Absolutely apoplectic for so many reasons.
1. The f*cking Tories for allowing a bunch of right-wing scum to drive the government to holding this vote
2. The Remain campaign for forcing the debate to be so negative and allowing the Leave campaign to focus on immigration
3. The f*cking electorate for buying the whole f*cking thing.

Do I want to live in a nasty, xenophobic country so inward looking that it still hasn't realised that we were already slipping towards mediocrity? I'm not sure that I f*cking do. It's an utter disgrace that the likes of Farage have been allowed to hold the country to ransom by insisting that all our problems are caused by immigration and the EU.
Shame on the other parties for f*cking allowing it to happen. This should have been nipped in the bud years ago.
The end result is that we have a country that is now split just as badly as the Tory party. Can I blame those areas that voted strongly to leave? Not really. They have been ignored by both big parties since the early 80s and this is the first time they felt that they had a voice thanks to our ludicrous voting system. Of course, they have cut their nose off to spite their face; I thought the government was already right-wing; they aint seen nothing yet and now they are going to lose their EU funding. DO they really think that this bunch of self-serving charlatans are going to replace the EU funding? Let's ask them in five years when all their services have gone and everyone is on a zero-hours contract.
This is a true constitutional crisis, make no mistake. Scotland should, and probably will, have another referendum and will, rightly IMHO, vote to leave. In Northern Ireland I know from first hand accounts from family that the Nationalist community is absolutely livid. Sinn Fein will call for a referendum for a united IReland. Probably won't happen, but they too receive a lot of funding from the EU. Given the history there and the fact that tensions remain high I really fear for what is to come. N. Ireland is currently (relatively) peaceful, but sectarian tensions is bubbling just under the surface.
So, we will be left with a jingoistic England and Wales, N. Ireland in turmoil and f*ck all else. Bravo Cameron; you just pipped every other Prime Minister to the post of worst leader ever.


Right, I'm off to get mine and my daughter's photos done so I can send off my Irish passport application today. I'm not joking when I say that me and the missus are seriously contemplating moving away from this soon to be backwater.


This.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: noodlé on June 24, 2016, 11:17:09 am

...ooh, ooh, I know this one, sir....

Dickhead.


i used to think otherwise. but current me is pretty embarrassed about previous me.

Quote
Expect much more value to be wiped off UK PLC, inward investment to dry up pretty much overnight, and the trickle of skills outward to turn into a full blown gush.


this doesn't have to happen. right now there are no trade barriers between the uk and europe - but there are, of course, rules which everyone must follow. there really is no reason why the trade relationship needs to change. for all the bluster about 'eu red tape', the average joe doesn't give a f*ck, and the rich corporate f*cks actually rather like it.

we all like buying stuff from europe, and europe likes buying stuff from us. we can carry on unless somebody decides to  make it difficult. i don't see us doing that because we have no reason to. if the eu does it then it will be out of spite.. et pour encourager les autres.. and as that would be contrary to the interests of the eu citizenry then their doing so would be a powerful vindication of those (of which i am one) who don't have any love for the eu institutions themselves.

that isn't to say they won't... but with the germans even more in charge than they were yesterday, and everyone scared sh!tless that the french and the dutch are going to 'do one'... there has to be hope that the eu will try and negotiate a sensible deal. after all.. haven't we been told that the eu is good because it's a powerful bloc that can negotiate effectively with important economies elsewhere? well guess what, the uk is about to become a pretty important elsewhere economy.

there's a clear vote against the free movement of people. i think that's stupid. but skilled workers will still want to go o the uk, and the uk will still want them to. just ask canada, ask australia, ask the usa.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on June 24, 2016, 11:31:34 am
I guess my MP had received a lot of angry emails today. FWIW, he is John Redwood and his constituency voted solidly in favour of remain:

Bravo
I am utterly livid and disgusted by the entire campaign. I am almost shaking with rage that you and your buddies have forced this vote in the first place and then turned the debate into one about immigration.
Perhaps now you've achieved your lifelong dream you will actually start being a parliamentarian instead of focusing all your energy on something which, until you made it all about immigration, the vast majority of the population cared not a jot?
Come next election I will be joining whatever campaign stands the best chance of booting you out of your comfortable safe seat. Our outdated electoral college has given you a free ride for far too long. You've succeeded in dividing the country every bit as badly as the Tory party and the vast majority of people to whom I have spoken this morning are shocked and appalled.
A sizeable majority of your constituents voted for remain and are now desperately uncertain about their futures. You have let us all down. Feelings are running high enough to make this just the sort of issue to make some big inroads to your majority if not actually unseat you and I will be doing everything at my disposal to highlight the fact that you were a leading campaigner to leaver for all these years.
Yours faithfully ,

Blah Blah.

----------------------------------

Dear Mr X

          Like many millions of my fellow countrymen and women I judged we will be more prosperous and more democratic by withdrawing from the EU. I had just one vote like everyone else. I intend to work tirelessly for my constituents, and have every wish to ensure we are more prosperous as a result.

Regards

The Rt Hon John Redwood MP
Member of Parliament for Wokingham

-----------------------------------------------------

What you have done is divide the nation right down the middle in exactly the same way that the Conservative Party is and you are a public figure which gives you a much louder voice than those you allegedly represent. And now we will have Boris Johnson, the charlatan of politics leading the country through incredibly choppy waters. Where are your economic policies? All I heard on the campaign trail was the lies about the £350m a week we will get back from the EU. Do I really believe that a Tory party that has never cared about anyone but themselves is going to replace the EU funding in deprived areas? At least you have principles and have always stood against the EU; Boris revolves like a record player to face whichever direction will best further himself. As for Farage, I find it incomprehensible that the debate was allowed to be turned into blaming everything on immigration. I was proud to be part of a nation that was tolerant, forward-looking and accepted the world. You and your cronies have made us the laughing stock of the world and I find myself ashamed to be a British national. My Irish passport application will be in the post today.
Not everything is about money and wealth; there are such things as decency and society. I'm not sure I want to bring up my child in a country that lives so far in the past that it believes we are still an economic powerhouse. An economic recovery based on rising house prices and expanding credit is not a recipe for long-term survival and you have just made it worse.
Your constituency voted against Leave. One of the tiny benefits of the constituency system is that we can focus on getting you out, and mark my words, I will do my level best to achieve this.

Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Duck for Cover on June 24, 2016, 11:39:36 am
Mercedes-Benz, BMW, VW - Audi, Bosch, Siemens ...........  just a few very large reasons why we won't be hit by huge trade tariffs from the EU.

On the other hand, Nissan, Toyota and Honda might prefer to manufacture more within the EU.  Some of the banks may well feel the need to move people into the EU too. 
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on June 24, 2016, 11:46:28 am

Mercedes-Benz, BMW, VW - Audi, Bosch, Siemens ...........  just a few very large reasons why we won't be hit by huge trade tariffs from the EU.

On the other hand, Nissan, Toyota and Honda might prefer to manufacture more within the EU.  Some of the banks may well feel the need to move people into the EU too.


It's not just about the economic impact; we are the laughing stock of the world. All the foreigners with whom I deal through work were utterly shocked that we were even having the vote in the first place. We have shown ourselves to be an inward-looking nation that wants to shut out the world.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Lessred on June 24, 2016, 12:02:15 pm
It seems to be the way at present - see A (US of)
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on June 24, 2016, 12:05:39 pm

It seems to be the way at present - see A (US of)


I hope that the majority in the US will take this as a wake up call and not be complacent about Trump's chances of winning. Of course, it is all a symptom of the pending collapse of the current system; how much longer can we go on ignoring the real problems faced by so many people?
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Mangetout on June 24, 2016, 12:06:04 pm

We have shown ourselves to be an inward-looking nation that wants to shut out the world.


That's not exactly a twist
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Lessred on June 24, 2016, 12:15:44 pm
Now London thinks it should have it's own seat at the Brexit negotiations. Can we exit London and re-join the rest of Europe?
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: JimShady on June 24, 2016, 12:16:40 pm
#Londonependance
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Jeff on June 24, 2016, 12:18:53 pm
Jim, no one cares about your dancing.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Lessred on June 24, 2016, 12:20:22 pm
It's all ok, we can sack off Germany, France et al, because we can have Vlad as our friend.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: noodlé on June 24, 2016, 12:25:58 pm

Mercedes-Benz, BMW, VW - Audi, Bosch, Siemens ...........  just a few very large reasons why we won't be hit by huge trade tariffs from the EU.

On the other hand, Nissan, Toyota and Honda might prefer to manufacture more within the EU.  Some of the banks may well feel the need to move people into the EU too.


well if the germans want to keep it easy for brits to buy their cars then they have to make it easy for euros to buy british cars. or, y'know, the ones that brits screw together for the japanese.

most of the vocal remainers have spent the last eight years saying the uk will be better off with less bankers, so presumably there's no issue there.

those remainers will also be pleased to know that the uk will now be able to tax starbucks, and not tax tampons.

by the way, if anyone is looking for brexit stock tips... maybe think about avoiding capita, serco, and the other giants of 'public sector procurement'. one true downside of the eu were horrendously onerous tender rules that made it almost impossible for SME's to win decent public sector contracts. lots of those rules can be dumped without damaging worker rights or consumer protections. some regulations will have to go, these are good candidates. crapita will not be amused.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on June 24, 2016, 12:29:19 pm

well if the germans want to keep it easy for brits to buy their cars then they have to make it easy for euros to buy british cars. or, y'know, the ones that brits screw together for the japanese.

most of the vocal remainers have spent the last eight years saying the uk will be better off with less bankers, so presumably there's no issue there.

those remainers will also be pleased to know that the uk will now be able to tax starbucks, and not tax tampons.

by the way, if anyone is looking for brexit stock tips... maybe think about avoiding capita, serco, and the other giants of 'public sector procurement'. one true downside of the eu were horrendously onerous tender rules that made it almost impossible for SME's to win decent public sector contracts. lots of those rules can be dumped without damaging worker rights or consumer protections. some regulations will have to go, these are good candidates. crapita will not be amused.


I don't believe for a second that leaving the EU will enable SMEs to win public sector business. The public sector is all about cost and they have to go for the lowest bid. I can't see the big firms allowing themselves to be undercut. Also worth bearing in mind that this government is pro-big business and that they are constantly being lobbied by them.
As for bankers, we are a little late to do anything about that. We let them ransack the economy and are still living with the consequences and will be for many years to come.
Finally there is sentiment. The majority of those in positions to make investment decisions will almost certainly be forced to pull back and expectations are now focused on recession. Once a recession is expected, it inevitably happens.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: graham on June 24, 2016, 12:34:22 pm
What Karl said. I don't think that SMEs offer enough juicy, post-politics directorships to attract much public sector business.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Deano on June 24, 2016, 12:55:00 pm

if jeremy corbyn won an election the markets would go to sh!t and most of the people currently crowing about what they're doing now would be citing it as evidence that evil capitalism fears a world in which it is not pandered to by those in power.

this is a massive overreaction to the forthcoming period of uncertainty. the currency devaluation will have real effects as imports will be more expensive and the aforementioned uncertainty will deter the inward investment that should otherwise come to enjoy a cheaper currency.

the stock market fall, aside from the impact on near-term savers and retirees, means nothing.. it's how it responds as the future unfolds that matters as that's inductive of how the real economy will be expected to develop.

my suggestion.. as soon as someone has the position to do so the uk should announce that it is open to unilateral free trade with the EU, and the rest of the world. our trade will only be damaged if people decide to start putting up barriers... but the developed world is simply not moving in that direction.

leaving is either brave or stupid. how those two are balanced from here on is in the control of politicians in both the uk and europe. they just have to not be a bunch of c*nts and suddenly i see the huge flaw in my thinking here.


I have essentially no economic knowledge, but I've read a few explanations like this, stating how we will likely be no worse off after we leave.  There seems to be less explanantions as to how we will be better off. Other than "we have gained control back from Europe" - what does that actually mean in practice - or Farage's classic "victory for ordinary people, good people, decent people", by which I assume he is referring to white people.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Russ on June 24, 2016, 01:12:29 pm

Blame me, all my fault.


Given you're on the verge of retiring you're almost certainly going to be hit harder than most, you just don't get to blame anyone else. Oh wait, yes you do. Immigrants and darkies, right?
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Seán on June 24, 2016, 01:15:37 pm
I was idly wonder  Irish citizenship broadly follows the same rule rules as plating for its national football team in the 90s.
Seán Snr already has dual nationality and Mrs. Seán She's da was an Oirish blacksmith. Then I realised it's probably all going to kick off again over there over the next few years  with the notion of unification and the great that might bring likely to raise its head again.

So....do we have a 'how to propose to yer burd' thread?
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: RD on June 24, 2016, 01:18:10 pm
Still, good news about those straight bananas right?
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Simon. Not Steve or Nazimon on June 24, 2016, 01:35:23 pm

Given you're on the verge of retiring you're almost certainly going to be hit harder than most, you just don't get to blame anyone else. Oh wait, yes you do. Immigrants and darkies, right?


Only if he doesn't have a final salary pension. It's not as if the government is going to reduce benefits to pensioners while they remain the most votey section of the electorate.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: donnyred on June 24, 2016, 01:36:02 pm
We thankfully are living in a democracy and majority rules. Common sense has won the day.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Mike B. on June 24, 2016, 01:39:52 pm

Still, good news about those straight bananas right?


Has anyone asked the LGBT black tarantulas?
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: RD on June 24, 2016, 01:51:19 pm

We  are living in a flawed democracy. Thick elderly racists have won the day.


Fixed that for you
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: JimShady on June 24, 2016, 01:52:27 pm

We thankfully are living in a democracy and majority rules. Common sense has won the day.


I can't even....
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: JRs Cigarette on June 24, 2016, 01:53:58 pm

We thankfully are living in a democracy and majority rules. Common sense has won the day.


Genuine question, what are you thinking will happen and what are the positives you think will come from this?
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Simon. Not Steve or Nazimon on June 24, 2016, 01:55:39 pm

We thankfully are living in a democracy and majority rules. Common sense has won the day.


I'm intrigued. What do you expect to improve with this result and when do you expect it to happen?

Edit: JR's Cigarette beat me to it.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Russ on June 24, 2016, 01:57:57 pm
I imagine he thinks that his child will now be taking the jobs denied to them by the Poles, conveniently overlooking the fact that the jobs won't actually exist any more.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Rich B on June 24, 2016, 01:59:15 pm

Given you're on the verge of retiring you're almost certainly going to be hit harder than most, you just don't get to blame anyone else. Oh wait, yes you do. Immigrants and darkies, right?

Dear Russ, f*ck you and your inane ( oh I'm so sorry you're being flippant again) comments.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Simon. Not Steve or Nazimon on June 24, 2016, 02:00:19 pm

I imagine he thinks that his child will now be taking the jobs denied to them by the Poles, conveniently overlooking the fact that the jobs won't actually exist any more.


And that everyone associated with the leave campaign has made it clear that no-one is going to be kicked out. (Obviously some will leave as the economy shrinks.)
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Russ on June 24, 2016, 02:03:08 pm

Dear Russ, f*ck you and your inane ( oh I'm so sorry you're being flippant again) comments.


No, there was nothing flippant about it. I was completely serious, you are likely to be significantly impacted and you have made a poor decision for bad reasons. Your options will be to either face up to your idiocy, or find someone to shift the blame to. I've no doubt which one you'll choose.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: dunc on June 24, 2016, 02:16:19 pm
At least this will result in lots of burdening EU red tape being removed. This will enable us all to stick our heads in the oven then the economy goes down the tubes
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: donnyred on June 24, 2016, 02:35:57 pm

No, there was nothing flippant about it. I was completely serious, you are likely to be significantly impacted and you have made a poor decision for bad reasons. Your options will be to either face up to your idiocy, or find someone to shift the blame to. I've no doubt which one you'll choose.
How the f*ck can you even comment on Brexit when you decided it was better to f*ck of abroad. The majority have spoken and thats why we live in a democratic society where tw@ts like you are up thier own arse.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on June 24, 2016, 02:38:42 pm
On the economic side, don't expect stocks and the Pound to keep diving as it's not the nature of markets. We need to watch for the slow drip over the coming months. People will buy in when they think markets are oversold and provide temporary relief.
Just o put today's slide into perspective, although the FTSE is down around 3.5%, if you factor in the fall in the Pound then the market has actually fallen by 10% for foreign investors.
I read that exchange controls have been put in place for the first time since they were abolished in the 1980s. As the Chinese insult says: 'May you live in interesting times'.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: noodlé on June 24, 2016, 02:39:19 pm

I don't believe for a second that leaving the EU will enable SMEs to win public sector business. The public sector is all about cost and they have to go for the lowest bid. I can't see the big firms allowing themselves to be undercut.


the thing is, EU procurement rules create a massive onerous framework and strict scoring mechanisms that mean that cost is only one consideration. the reason SME's struggle is that they don't have the resources to employ specialist tender writers to ensure that all the boxes are ticked. i have helped to write such documents and they are so painfully rigged it's incredible.

Quote
Also worth bearing in mind that this government is pro-big business and that they are constantly being lobbied by them.


this, on the other hand is true. but the other lot are worse (even if they don't mean to be.. but well-meant over-regulation is exactly as damaging as the nefarious stuff). i am merely speculating that this is an area where positive change is definitely possible *if* there is political will. hands are no longer tied. it's harder for the government to do things that people don't like when those things are within it's control.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Nottingham Florist on June 24, 2016, 02:39:32 pm

How the f*ck can you even comment on Brexit when you decided it was better to f*ck of abroad. The majority have spoken and thats why we live in a democratic society where tw@ts like you are up thier own arse.


Russ is a foreigner now, so it's OK to shout at him. But for those of us still living here, it'd be nice to know how we're going to be a more prosperous and united nation, especially after Scotland (and Ireland?) have f*cked off.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on June 24, 2016, 02:40:22 pm

How the f*ck can you even comment on Brexit when you decided it was better to f*ck of abroad. The majority have spoken and thats why we live in a democratic society where tw@ts like you are up thier own arse.


Yes, you are correct. But instead of blaming the true culprits for the impoverishment of large swathes of the population which is every government since 1979, they vote to give more power to those who will make it worse for them. I don't see how anyone benefits here as we will all be worse off, both economically and politically.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on June 24, 2016, 02:42:29 pm
As well as all the anger that has now been generated on the Remain side. The nation is completely divided and very angry on both sides.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Russ on June 24, 2016, 02:47:53 pm

The majority have spoken and thats why we live in a democratic society where tw@ts like you are up thier own arse.


When you can't even construct a sentence that makes any sense, you're clearly too stupid to be allowed to vote on such important matters.

I look forward to hearing your progeny's next excuse for not being able to get a job.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Chicago on June 24, 2016, 02:51:09 pm

I am actually shaking with anger this morning. Absolutely apoplectic for so many reasons.
1. The f*cking Tories for allowing a bunch of right-wing scum to drive the government to holding this vote
2. The Remain campaign for forcing the debate to be so negative and allowing the Leave campaign to focus on immigration
3. The f*cking electorate for buying the whole f*cking thing.

Do I want to live in a nasty, xenophobic country so inward looking that it still hasn't realised that we were already slipping towards mediocrity? I'm not sure that I f*cking do. It's an utter disgrace that the likes of Farage have been allowed to hold the country to ransom by insisting that all our problems are caused by immigration and the EU.
Shame on the other parties for f*cking allowing it to happen. This should have been nipped in the bud years ago.
The end result is that we have a country that is now split just as badly as the Tory party. Can I blame those areas that voted strongly to leave? Not really. They have been ignored by both big parties since the early 80s and this is the first time they felt that they had a voice thanks to our ludicrous voting system. Of course, they have cut their nose off to spite their face; I thought the government was already right-wing; they aint seen nothing yet and now they are going to lose their EU funding. DO they really think that this bunch of self-serving charlatans are going to replace the EU funding? Let's ask them in five years when all their services have gone and everyone is on a zero-hours contract.
This is a true constitutional crisis, make no mistake. Scotland should, and probably will, have another referendum and will, rightly IMHO, vote to leave. In Northern Ireland I know from first hand accounts from family that the Nationalist community is absolutely livid. Sinn Fein will call for a referendum for a united IReland. Probably won't happen, but they too receive a lot of funding from the EU. Given the history there and the fact that tensions remain high I really fear for what is to come. N. Ireland is currently (relatively) peaceful, but sectarian tensions is bubbling just under the surface.
So, we will be left with a jingoistic England and Wales, N. Ireland in turmoil and f*ck all else. Bravo Cameron; you just pipped every other Prime Minister to the post of worst leader ever.


Right, I'm off to get mine and my daughter's photos done so I can send off my Irish passport application today. I'm not joking when I say that me and the missus are seriously contemplating moving away from this soon to be backwater.




I have been livid all night after watching the BBC with utter astonishment at this decision.  Do you, the missus and the kiddo need a place to stay for a while?  My wife needs some help with her Amazon business. 


Chicago: Offering Asylum. 
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on June 24, 2016, 02:52:54 pm



I have been livid all night after watching the BBC with utter astonishment at this decision.  Do you, the missus and the kiddo need a place to stay for a while?  My wife needs some help with her Amazon business. 


Chicago: Offering Asylum.


If she needs any help with contracts then we can certainly help!

Some interesting stuff on Twitter (not that I go on there; via a third party):
'A generation given everything: free education, golden pensions, social mobility, have voted to strip my generation’s future.'

'The younger generation has lost the right to live and work in 27 other countries. We will never know the full extent of lost opportunities, friendships, marriages and experiences we will be denied. Freedom of movement was taken away by our parents, uncles and grandparents in a parting blow to a generation that was already drowning in the debts of its predecessors'

Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Chicago on June 24, 2016, 03:02:47 pm


It's really really sad isn't it....  I am finding myself apologizing to everyone here at work who have walked in, took a look at me in disgust and said "thanks for f*cking up my retirement fund!".  I can't really argue with them and I wasn't even allowed to vote, but everyone I knew, including Mum, sister, brother and friends all voted to remain.

I will a little ashamed that we could sink to such levels of stupidity.


Tricky, yes my wife would very much be interested in doing some work with you.  Send me an email address or I could get her to call you.  Thanks.


Chicago: Slightly less British...
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: DaveM on June 24, 2016, 03:05:30 pm
Just managed to get a few hours sleep after being awake through this whole sorry saga overnight.

Immediate thoughts are - just numb mainly. I think always at the back of my mind, I expected a huge swathe of people to be able to balance the broad headline-grabbing strap-lines with no substance against the very real risks of leaving and the benefits of our continued membership, and would vote for Remain.

To see the results rolling in and the general concensus from the TV analysts that in many areas, people seem to have voted leave NOT because of any major gripe with the EU itself, but as a 'protest' vote - a way of kicking the establishment - Conservative, Labour, Bankers, Rich People etc, made me so...well - 'sad' probably sums it up most.

I'm not overly worried about the immediate downward spike of Sterling - that will recover to some degree, and I'm probably not too worried about the very long term as things are likely to balance themselves out, deals will be cut and we are still a powerful economy. What worries me is the short-to-medium term, and by that I mean anything up to the next 10 years. We can't predict exactly what will happen or how deep the problems will get, but we can say with some sureity that there will BE problems as a result of this vote and they will BE bad and all of it is completely and utterly unnecessarily.

I know its 'democracy' but a 3-4% difference between the sides doesn't feel like it is a particualrly strong mandate, and the vote has only highlighted how fractured this country is.

So many things spinning around in my head right now about it all. There seems to be even more smaller issues cropping up that I hadn't even considered. Over-riding feeling though is sadness, and disappointment in our country.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: pantzcat on June 24, 2016, 03:11:20 pm
I'm so f*cking angry, that this even came to the table because Cameron couldn't control his party at the general election, that a spat between two Etonians has caused a massive economic crash, that the campaign was built on a rhetoric of hate & division and most of all that the UK public lapped that sh!t up. This country is well and truly f*cked.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: charlie on June 24, 2016, 03:16:37 pm
^ This
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Simon. Not Steve or Nazimon on June 24, 2016, 03:19:24 pm

I'm not overly worried about the immediate downward spike of Sterling - that will recover to some degree, and I'm probably not too worried about the very long term as things are likely to balance themselves out, deals will be cut and we are still a powerful economy. What worries me is the short-to-medium term, and by that I mean anything up to the next 10 years. We can't predict exactly what will happen or how deep the problems will get, but we can say with some sureity that there will BE problems as a result of this vote and they will BE bad and all of it is completely and utterly unnecessarily.


The immediate downward spike will likely be followed by a upward spike and then 5 years of overall slow downward movement. Likewise the stock market.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Lessred on June 24, 2016, 03:21:18 pm
The ridiculous point is that it may be that after all this we still have free movement to work as a requirement of the trade deals we need.

That would be ace, we don't have any say over decisions and rules (e.g. transaction tax), have to abide by them and still have the thing most brexiters seemed to be voting on.

Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on June 24, 2016, 03:31:53 pm

The immediate downward spike will likely be followed by a upward spike and then 5 years of overall slow downward movement. Likewise the stock market.


Correct.

I love this country:

'A Channel 4 correspondent in Barnsley, Yorkshire, where 68% voted to leave, has been interrupted by people shouting “send them home”.'

Completed passport application; just waiting for my accountant friend to countersign so I can get it in the post ASAP. The Irish passport office will be inundated over the next couple of weeks.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: JRs Cigarette on June 24, 2016, 03:33:24 pm

When you can't even construct a sentence that makes any sense, you're clearly too stupid to be allowed to vote on such important matters.

I look forward to hearing your progeny's next excuse for not being able to get a job.


Point of order I believe it was Donny's nephew.

And my question still out there to Donny.  I'm not sure who Brexit f*ckwit actually is, but equally genuine question to him, what do you think will get better/change now?
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Russ on June 24, 2016, 03:35:02 pm

I'm not sure who Brexit f*ckwit actually is


Rich B.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on June 24, 2016, 03:36:43 pm
Sean's quote:
Quote
Not sure if this has already been mentioned, but, surely if wor Dave really wanted to f*ck Nigel and Boris et al off, surely all he needs to do is instead of simply resigning, he could gobthe whole hog and call an election.

All anyone in opposition then has to do is say, "that Euro stuff was a f*cking stupid idea. Vote for us and we'll forget all about it, eh?" and they have a decent chance if getting into power and Britain doesn't go anywhere.

Obviously that's almost certainly mean the end of this Tory reign, and really very very unlikely, given the obvious furorebsuch move might cause, but it's concievably possible, I s'pose.....


I think the key is for the opposition parties to keep the focus on the fact that it was the Tories who brought us to this point until the election comes whenever that may be. There must be a lot of pissed off Tory voters in the Tory heartlands who will punish them for this. They voted Tory in order to preserve or increase their wealth and then this happens.

I suspect that BJ will hang on until the Scottish question is resolved; he has far more chance of retaining a majority if Scotland leaves. I just want to make sure that no voter forgets that it was the Tories what done it come the general election.

Also, Corbyn will be gone by Monday I suspect...
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Rich B on June 24, 2016, 03:40:26 pm

Rich B.

Someone classed all Leavers as f*ckwits so .....
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on June 24, 2016, 03:40:37 pm


I look forward to hearing your progeny's next excuse for not being able to get a job.


I'm sure there will be plenty at the Sports Direct warehouse in d*rbyshire once the Eastern Europeans leave/are deported. Might as well go now in fact and get a taste of what the job market will be like for the next lot of years thanks to the lurch to the right that will now follow this result.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: DaveM on June 24, 2016, 03:43:51 pm

Sean's quote:
I think the key is for the opposition parties to keep the focus on the fact that it was the Tories who brought us to this point until the election comes whenever that may be. There must be a lot of pissed off Tory voters in the Tory heartlands who will punish them for this. They voted Tory in order to preserve or increase their wealth and then this happens.

I suspect that BJ will hang on until the Scottish question is resolved; he has far more chance of retaining a majority if Scotland leaves. I just want to make sure that no voter forgets that it was the Tories what done it come the general election.

Also, Corbyn will be gone by Monday I suspect...


If BJ became PM (as seems likely) and holds a snap election then he would win another term as long as Corbyn is in charge.

Corbyn is significantly culpable for this result (his apathy was obvious) and has always been pretty much unelectable. If Labour want a hope in a general election then they need rid of him.

As I said the other day, I am a Tory voter but have seen people I agree violently with on all sides of the political spectrum. I find it hard to think about Party Politics right now as it seems so tainted in many ways.

That said, if there was any mechanism whereby we could put a spanner in the works of this ridiculous decision - even if that meant having someone unpaletable to me as PM in the short term - then I would go for it. f*ck what it means to 'democracy' - this decision is hideously bad for our country.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: JimShady on June 24, 2016, 03:44:17 pm

How the f*ck can you even comment on Brexit when you decided it was better to f*ck of abroad. The majority have spoken and thats why we live in a democratic society where tw@ts like you are up thier own arse.


This 'majority' thing gets me. It was SO close. We could hold it tomorrow, one decent speech and  a change in weather, and likely we'd get a different result. I don't believe things this important should be decided on a referendum, nevermind one that is decided by a tiny proportion.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on June 24, 2016, 03:45:40 pm
Meanwhile, back in Cloud Cuckoo land, BJ already looks to have lost control of everything:

"Boris says no rush for Brexit as Cameron Quits"

v

"We want Britain out as soon as possible says top EU Leader"

It's out of your hands BJ. You've spent the past 25 years mocking and belittling these people and now you have to negotiate with them (Assuming the Tories are stupid enough to cast you as leader). Good luck little man from little country...

And of course the 'top EU Leader' is correct. It is strongly in Europe's interest to get the uncertainty out of the way as soon as possible and ditch us.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Rich B on June 24, 2016, 03:46:00 pm
I presume all of you so learned in what is going to happen are going to play the markets and wind up super rich, after all, it's surely not just words on an Internet forum....

Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on June 24, 2016, 03:47:16 pm

This 'majority' thing gets me. It was SO close. We could hold it tomorrow, one decent speech and  a change in weather, and likely we'd get a different result. I don't believe things this important should be decided on a referendum, nevermind one that is decided by a tiny proportion.


If another referendum was held tomorrow Remain would win, of that I am utterly convinced. Remain is massively culpable of gross complacency and we have paid the price. Held again, turnout would ensure that Remain held sway.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on June 24, 2016, 03:48:58 pm

I presume all of you so learned in what is going to happen are going to play the markets and wind up super rich, after all, it's surely not just words on an Internet forum....


Err, no. I've first got to wait and see if there is any immediate impact economy-wise and hope my job is safe. Of course, it is easy to get personal, something which I intend not to be guilty of here Rich, but I would still like to know what the next steps are economically now we have gone? What are your thoughts?
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: The GasMan on June 24, 2016, 03:50:20 pm
This referendum came about essentailly because of the high-handed & flippant manner Cameron was dismissed by the EU chiefs when he tried to negotiate some improvements in Britain's membership terms back in February. They essentially told him to f*ck-off & gave him no alternative but to go for a referendum on membership.
Now we're in the sh!t & the buck stops really with those stupid, pompous b@stards that head up the EU. The only upside in all this is that we now no longer have to dance to their tune. Not sure what tune we'll be playing though.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: DaveM on June 24, 2016, 03:50:41 pm

You've spent the past 25 years mocking and belittling these people


He hasn't though has he? I always had him pegged as fairly pro-Europe. Hence why it was a surprise when he suddenly came out for the 'leave' camp, and why most people think it was a cynical ploy to get to downing street.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on June 24, 2016, 03:51:06 pm



As I said the other day, I am a Tory voter but have seen people I agree violently with on all sides of the political spectrum. I find it hard to think about Party Politics right now as it seems so tainted in many ways.



This is what I mean. There will be a lot of very angry Tory voters in London and the home counties; suddenly, very safe seats may not seem quite so safe. Up until now the Exiteers have been the vocal ones; the Pro-EU beast has now stirred and I hope that some use can be made of the anger and resentment.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Simon. Not Steve or Nazimon on June 24, 2016, 03:51:39 pm

Sean's quote:
I think the key is for the opposition parties to keep the focus on the fact that it was the Tories who brought us to this point until the election comes whenever that may be. There must be a lot of pissed off Tory voters in the Tory heartlands who will punish them for this. They voted Tory in order to preserve or increase their wealth and then this happens.

I suspect that BJ will hang on until the Scottish question is resolved; he has far more chance of retaining a majority if Scotland leaves. I just want to make sure that no voter forgets that it was the Tories what done it come the general election.

Also, Corbyn will be gone by Monday I suspect...


In Corbyn's speech this morning, he appeared to call for article 50 to be triggered immediately but didn't mention a general election.

He only goes if he wants to. If he stands, he almost certainly gets on the ballot and almost certainly still wins with the Labour membership.

On the bright side, I got 16/1 on Theresa May as next PM last year and she's now much shorter odds. Done a smart job of keeping out of the referendum fray, so if the Tory party wants to punish Boris for splitting the party...
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: DaveM on June 24, 2016, 03:53:50 pm

This referendum came about essentailly because of the high-handed & flippant manner Cameron was dismissed by the EU chiefs when he tried to negotiate some improvements in Britain's membership terms back in February. They essentially told him to f*ck-off & gave him no alternative but to go for a referendum on membership.



Thats not accurate.

It was an election manifesto pledge to both seek additional UK concessions AND to hold a referendum.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Russ on June 24, 2016, 03:54:52 pm

This is what I mean. There will be a lot of very angry Tory voters in London and the home counties; suddenly, very safe seats may not seem quite so safe. Up until now the Exiteers have been the vocal ones; the Pro-EU beast has now stirred and I hope that some use can be made of the anger and resentment.


My Dad has always been a dyed in the wool Tory. If you put a small dog in a blue rosette in his local seat he'd probably vote for it, but in a general election right now - especially if Johnson were the Tory leader - he would vote for whichever party tactically stood the best chance of defeating the Tories.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on June 24, 2016, 03:56:38 pm

He hasn't though has he? I always had him pegged as fairly pro-Europe. Hence why it was a surprise when he suddenly came out for the 'leave' camp, and why most people think it was a cynical ploy to get to downing street.


You pegged him wrong. After he was sacked by The Times as political correspondent for printing lies, he became a political correspondent at The Telegraph's and covered the EU. Most of the nonsense stories that emerged about the Bananas, British Chocolate etc. were penned by him. Clever politics: whip up a bit of anti-European feeling initially (back then the overwhelming majority of the country was pro-EU) and then ratchet up the rhetoric eventually blaming everything on the EU. EU Commissioners at the time found it impossible to refute the stories because the British media loved them and as one commissioner put it "Our refutations just weren't as snappy and printable as Boris's half-truths and lies".
Of course, he wasn't necessarily pro-leave then; he had to wait and see which would serve his own purposes best when the vote finally came: "Boris in shining armour saves us from ignominy of EU withdrawal" or "Boris retakes UK sovereignty from EU bureaucrats".
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: charlie on June 24, 2016, 03:58:06 pm

This referendum came about essentailly because of the high-handed & flippant manner Cameron was dismissed by the EU chiefs when he tried to negotiate some improvements in Britain's membership terms back in February. They essentially told him to f*ck-off & gave him no alternative but to go for a referendum on membership.


Yes, but he could have walked away and given himself another year to try and negotiate better terms (as I believe Lynton Crosby advised him to do). Or he could simply have not been so stupid as to promise a referendum in his manifesto, just to appease the Eurosceptic wing of his party. He completely f*cked up.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Rich B on June 24, 2016, 03:58:22 pm

Err, no. I've first got to wait and see if there is any immediate impact economy-wise and hope my job is safe. Of course, it is easy to get personal, something which I intend not to be guilty of here Rich, but I would still like to know what the next steps are economically now we have gone? What are your thoughts?

Karl I ( can't wait for the responses here ) just don't know what's going to happen , I am not a financial guru, a politician or a clairvoyant.

All that's happening today is knee jerk reactions ( folks who have elected to f*ck off overseas even ) from everyone. Yes the pound has been hit - probably from speculators whose gamble failed but am fairly confident ( hopeful ) things will improve.

All to easy folks labelling Leavers as f*ckwits and council house morons but some seriously clever people were in the Leave camp.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Simon. Not Steve or Nazimon on June 24, 2016, 03:58:31 pm

Thats not accurate.

It was an election manifesto pledge to both seek additional UK concessions AND to hold a referendum.


But I think he hoped/expected to get more back and he rushed into the referendum anyway because he thought losing was even more certain if there was a repeat of last summers refugee issues. It's noticeable there has been nary a mention of Cameron's concessions during the campaign, because he knows it was nothing.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: DaveM on June 24, 2016, 03:58:36 pm

You pegged him wrong. After he was sacked by The Times as political correspondent for printing lies, he became a political correspondent at The Telegraph's and covered the EU. Most of the nonsense stories that emerged about the Bananas, British Chocolate etc. were penned by him. Clever politics: whip up a bit of anti-European feeling initially (back then the overwhelming majority of the country was pro-EU) and then ratchet up the rhetoric eventually blaming everything on the EU. EU Commissioners at the time found it impossible to refute the stories because the British media loved them and as one commissioner put it "Our refutations just weren't as snappy and printable as Boris's half-truths and lies".
Of course, he wasn't necessarily pro-leave then; he had to wait and see which would serve his own purposes best when the vote finally came: "Boris in shining armour saves us from ignominy of EU withdrawal" or "Boris retakes UK sovereignty from EU bureaucrats".


Fair enough, I stand corrected then. All smoke and mirrors then
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on June 24, 2016, 03:58:45 pm

In Corbyn's speech this morning, he appeared to call for article 50 to be triggered immediately but didn't mention a general election.

He only goes if he wants to. If he stands, he almost certainly gets on the ballot and almost certainly still wins with the Labour membership.

On the bright side, I got 16/1 on Theresa May as next PM last year and she's now much shorter odds. Done a smart job of keeping out of the referendum fray, so if the Tory party wants to punish Boris for splitting the party...


I don't know if he will have a choice. An vote of no confidence will be passed by the PLP on Monday. Not sure of the rules, but if he needs nominations from the PLP to get on to the ballot then he will not make it. We'll see.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: DaveM on June 24, 2016, 04:00:41 pm

But I think he hoped/expected to get more back and he rushed into the referendum anyway because he thought losing was even more certain if there was a repeat of last summers refugee issues. It's noticeable there has been nary a mention of Cameron's concessions during the campaign, because he knows it was nothing.


Well there was mention of it, but most just said 'they are sh!t' (they weren't IMO).

I don't think there was a rush to referendum. I just think he misjudged the country and the EU-hating frenzy that the leave camp could whip up. He thought this would be a straightforward romp home for a remain vote - as did a lot of people, including me.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Russ on June 24, 2016, 04:02:04 pm

Karl I ( can't wait for the responses here ) just don't know what's going to happen , I am not a financial guru, a politician or a clairvoyant.


So why did you vote to leave?
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Simon. Not Steve or Nazimon on June 24, 2016, 04:02:57 pm

I don't know if he will have a choice. An vote of no confidence will be passed by the PLP on Monday. Not sure of the rules, but if he needs nominations from the PLP to get on to the ballot then he will not make it. We'll see.


I think he still only needs 35 nominations to go back on the ballot. I think there will be lots of pressure from the constituency parties to nominate him -  they still seem to love him - so they will be running the risk of deselection if he's not on the ballot.

Even if it's not him, it'll probably be someone like McDonnell.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on June 24, 2016, 04:03:02 pm


All that's happening today is knee jerk reactions ( folks who have elected to f*ck off overseas even ) from everyone. Yes the pound has been hit - probably from speculators whose gamble failed but am fairly confident ( hopeful ) things will improve.


Hope isn't enough. We need clear policies and guidance. Business needs clear policies and guidance. Foreign investors need clear policies and guidance. They can't make investment decisions if they don't have a clue what they are investing in.

Quote

All to easy folks labelling Leavers as f*ckwits and council house morons but some seriously clever people were in the Leave camp.


Yes, you're correct. And many of them were in it for their own benefit. BJ and Farage have clear agendas of their own.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Rich B on June 24, 2016, 04:05:07 pm

So why did you vote to leave?

The same reason I did in 1975, I have a quaint notion about Britain being governed by British for good or bad.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Rich B on June 24, 2016, 04:07:11 pm

Hope isn't enough. We need clear policies and guidance. Business needs clear policies and guidance. Foreign investors need clear policies and guidance. They can't make investment decisions if they don't have a clue what they are investing in.

Yes, you're correct. And many of them were in it for their own benefit. BJ and Farage have clear agendas of their own.

BJ and Farage should step aside now and let the clever people do their work.

Yes we need clear policies etc but you asked me - some guy on a football forum, not the people that count.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on June 24, 2016, 04:09:10 pm

I think he still only needs 35 nominations to go back on the ballot. I think there will be lots of pressure from the constituency parties to nominate him -  they still seem to love him - so they will be running the risk of deselection if he's not on the ballot.

Even if it's not him, it'll probably be someone like McDonnell.


Corbyn is nothing if not a principled man. I would hope that he would do the honourable thing; we shall see. I've come to the conclusion since the last election that the Labour Party will probably split at some point; this could be the time. The political landscape has been struck by an earthquake and I wouldn't be surprised if the Tory party also splits if it becomes clear to MPs that they may be in danger of losing their seats. There are still some Tories on the left of the party who will be devastated by this.
I would not be surprised to see coalition governments become more frequent given how divided this referendum has left the country.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: charlie on June 24, 2016, 04:09:52 pm
Can anybody explain why the FTSE is down only 2.3% but Frankfurt and Paris are both down by about 6%. Genuine question - I would have thought the FTSE would be the biggest faller worldwide but that isn't (yet) the case.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on June 24, 2016, 04:13:19 pm

BJ and Farage should step aside now and let the clever people do their work.

Yes we need clear policies etc but you asked me - some guy on a football forum, not the people that count.


But that's the point; a vote to leap into the unknown with no clear indications of what will change does not inspire confidence.
As for Farage and BJ; you know as well as I do that Farage will not step aside until the grim reaper does his work. For BJ, he now has the greatest prize of all in his sight: do you really believe he will step aside? As for the clever people, I honestly don't think they expected to win and they have been caught with their pants down. It's going to take more than a few clever people to reassure everyone and heal the divisions that this process has created.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on June 24, 2016, 04:14:27 pm

Can anybody explain why the FTSE is down only 2.3% but Frankfurt and Paris are both down by about 6%. Genuine question - I would have thought the FTSE would be the biggest faller worldwide but that isn't (yet) the case.


Because the speculation will now be that the EU has been weakened and that the overall economy will slow thus denting future profits.
The FTSE appears cheap right now, so investors have bought in to the rally; they will sell out once they make some profit.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Andyp on June 24, 2016, 04:16:16 pm

The same reason I did in 1975, I have a quaint notion about Britain being governed by British for good or bad.


Britain has always been governed by the British people. The EU did not take away the sovereignty of parliament but for the advantages that membership brought we agreed to abide by certain common arrangements which we were party to setting up. If you are seriously interested in improving democracy and giving power to us the people then we need to do something about the multi,-national companies and banks who have far more power than the EU.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Rich B on June 24, 2016, 04:18:56 pm

But that's the point; a vote to leap into the unknown with no clear indications of what will change does not inspire confidence.
As for Farage and BJ; you know as well as I do that Farage will not step aside until the grim reaper does his work. For BJ, he now has the greatest prize of all in his sight: do you really believe he will step aside? As for the clever people, I honestly don't think they expected to win and they have been caught with their pants down. It's going to take more than a few clever people to reassure everyone and heal the divisions that this process has created.

Sad but true on bJ and NF and true on shock at win. I honestly thought Remain would win but hoped enough Leave votes to put a rocket under Cameron and Co.

Time will tell dude, early days yet and definitely a time for cool heads
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Andyp on June 24, 2016, 04:22:58 pm

Can anybody explain why the FTSE is down only 2.3% but Frankfurt and Paris are both down by about 6%. Genuine question - I would have thought the FTSE would be the biggest faller worldwide but that isn't (yet) the case.


And because there are many multi-national companies listed on the FTSE 100 who won't be affected that much. Look at those reliant on the British economy like the building firms who have dropped about 20% and the wider FTSE 250 which is down about 7%.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Richoriginal on June 24, 2016, 04:25:57 pm

If another referendum was held tomorrow Remain would win, of that I am utterly convinced. Remain is massively culpable of gross complacency and we have paid the price. Held again, turnout would ensure that Remain held sway.


Farage is on record as saying that if remain had won 52 to 48 then that's to close and he'd fight for another referendum. Wish someone would challenge him on that.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Richoriginal on June 24, 2016, 04:28:51 pm

This 'majority' thing gets me. It was SO close. We could hold it tomorrow, one decent speech and  a change in weather,[/] and likely we'd get a different result. I don't believe things this important should be decided on a referendum, nevermind one that is decided by a tiny proportion.


That annoys me. "Right, I'm off out to vote in this really important election..., oh, I need my brolly. I'll not bother then."

Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Russ on June 24, 2016, 04:31:09 pm

That annoys me. "Right, I'm off out to vote in this really important election..., oh, I need my brolly. I'll not bother then."


In fairness I think it was a bit more than that, judging by the picture of Waterloo station I saw Brid post on Facebook and the fact that it apparently took Bezza four hours to drive to and back from his voting station. Sounds like transit was absolutely f*cked in the SE yesterday.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on June 24, 2016, 04:31:49 pm

Sad but true on bJ and NF and true on shock at win. I honestly thought Remain would win but hoped enough Leave votes to put a rocket under Cameron and Co.

Time will tell dude, early days yet and definitely a time for cool heads


I can't cool my head until I know what happens next. We talk about knee-jerk reactions, but that is all that we have from the political and financial power-makers right now.
Just as a note; my wife is Malaysian Indian and was almost in tears this morning. She has lived here most of her life and says that she was always proud to live in Britain; proud of our tolerance and commitment to decency. This result has shaken that faith to the core hence why I mentioned looking at moving. She no longer feels welcome in a country that has voted for this result based almost entirely on immigration. Although many may claim that concerns about immigration are not racist, perhaps you should ask those who are actually on the receiving end of that rhetoric? For the record, she is very highly qualified and directly employs quite a few people.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Richoriginal on June 24, 2016, 04:35:06 pm

In fairness I think it was a bit more than that, judging by the picture of Waterloo station I saw Brid post on Facebook and the fact that it apparently took Bezza four hours to drive to and back from his voting station. Sounds like transit was absolutely f*cked in the SE yesterday.


Maybe so, but do you think a sunny day would have brought out an extra million people?
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Richoriginal on June 24, 2016, 04:37:24 pm

I can't cool my head until I know what happens next. We talk about knee-jerk reactions, but that is all that we have from the political and financial power-makers right now.
Just as a note; my wife is Malaysian Indian and was almost in tears this morning. She has lived here most of her life and says that she was always proud to live in Britain; proud of our tolerance and commitment to decency. This result has shaken that faith to the core hence why I mentioned looking at moving. She no longer feels welcome in a country that has voted for this result based almost entirely on immigration. Although many may claim that concerns about immigration are not racist, perhaps you should ask those who are actually on the receiving end of that rhetoric? For the record, she is very highly qualified and directly employs quite a few people.


Some analysis of the voting data shows that areas of high migration tended to vote remain (London, Manchester). Areas of low migration (Birmingham, clacton on sea) were high leave votes. So was it the perception of the effects of immigration rather than the reality?
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Richoriginal on June 24, 2016, 04:43:38 pm
"I voted leave, but now I'm shocked we've left, can we vote again?"

https://twitter.com/charlesatan/status/746360711450746881
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: DaveM on June 24, 2016, 04:50:10 pm

Some analysis of the voting data shows that areas of high migration tended to vote remain (London, Manchester). Areas of low migration (Birmingham, clacton on sea) were high leave votes. So was it the perception of the effects of immigration rather than the reality?


It was generational too.

Older voters were vastly in favour of leave. Younger voters were vastly in favour of remain.

It's the younger voters who will have to actually live with this decision for longer, sadly
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: DaveM on June 24, 2016, 04:56:40 pm

"I voted leave, but now I'm shocked we've left, can we vote again?"

https://twitter.com/charlesatan/status/746360711450746881


I wouldn't be surprised if this is a fairly common feeling.

A lot of folk say about elections that it really doesn't matter how you vote...nothing changes ultimately. To an extent this is true, but it does breed a bit of a casual attitude to voting. We see it all the time in local elections where 'shock' results are common when the government has low approval ratings as they are seen as 'protest' votes. Essentially harmless, and temporary but sending a message to the powers that be.

And I think a lot of people have done this with the referendum.

The realisation today that this vote was different in many ways, is going to drive massive instability and complete political change (lets not forget that Cameron, whatever you think about him, won a general election only last year), will suddenly bring home to people what their vote has contributed to.

It is impossible of course, but if you could wave a magic wand and press pause on everything now, and say to the electorate 'Ok that was just a test run, now you've seen how things will pan out with a leave vote - now go place your actual vote', I suspect the outcome would be very different.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on June 24, 2016, 05:04:22 pm

Some analysis of the voting data shows that areas of high migration tended to vote remain (London, Manchester). Areas of low migration (Birmingham, clacton on sea) were high leave votes. So was it the perception of the effects of immigration rather than the reality?


Yes. Immigration is a very powerful rhetorical tool; once the genie is out there is no putting it back. Reading has a huge Polish population, yet voted Remain. The rural areas of Berkshire where there is obviously very little migration voted Leave.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: charlie on June 24, 2016, 05:06:59 pm

Some analysis of the voting data shows that areas of high migration tended to vote remain (London, Manchester). Areas of low migration (Birmingham, clacton on sea) were high leave votes. So was it the perception of the effects of immigration rather than the reality?


Not doubting the overall sentiment of this, but isn't Birmingham an area of relatively high migration? And I'm sure I saw on the BBC that the vote in Brum was almost 50/50.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: benningtonred on June 24, 2016, 05:09:03 pm

Not doubting the overall sentiment of this, but isn't Birmingham an area of relatively high migration? And I'm sure I saw on the BBC that the vote in Brum was almost 50/50.


And the majority of Lincolnshire, which has a large Eastern European population, also voted to leave by a significant margin.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Mike B. on June 24, 2016, 05:11:10 pm

It is impossible of course, but if you could wave a magic wand and press pause on everything now, and say to the electorate 'Ok that was just a test run, now you've seen how things will pan out with a leave vote - now go place your actual vote', I suspect the outcome would be very different.


Aside from a lot of initial angst, which we'd have got from one side or the other regardless and will pass in time for some, probably all if the EU does fall on its arse - what kind of loon would suggest pressing reset less than 24 hours after polling closed (yourself and many Scottish politicians notwithstanding).

Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: pantzcat on June 24, 2016, 05:19:52 pm

In fairness I think it was a bit more than that, judging by the picture of Waterloo station I saw Brid post on Facebook and the fact that it apparently took Bezza four hours to drive to and back from his voting station. Sounds like transit was absolutely f*cked in the SE yesterday.


Can confirm it was really f*cking f*cked. My station was closed in the morning so I went then, but I'm lucky enough to be able to stroll into work whenever I like, may are not, equally getting home was a pian, I ended up walking a lot of the way, i can imagine anyone planning on voting on the way to pick up the kids etc. would have given it a miss when running late.

Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: DaveM on June 24, 2016, 05:21:46 pm

Aside from a lot of initial angst, which we'd have got from one side or the other regardless and will pass in time for some, probably all if the EU does fall on its arse - what kind of loon would suggest pressing reset less than 24 hours after polling closed (yourself and many Scottish politicians notwithstanding).


I was illustrating a point, rather than suggesting it. Perhaps you missed that.

I do maintain though, that all this referendum has shown is how flawed 'democracy' can be, and how the winning option may be the winning option, but it's barely any kind of genuine mandate. There will be further fallout.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: charlie on June 24, 2016, 05:23:02 pm


I do maintain though, that all this referendum has shown is how flawed 'democracy' can be, and how the winning option may be the winning option, but it's barely any kind of genuine mandate. There will be further fallout.


Bit like a general election then.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: redeye on June 24, 2016, 05:35:03 pm
Guy on Facebook I have been debating with for the past month has just told me the pound "will be back in a few days, or weeks at the most. You want some advice? Buy pounds."

I'm not taking his advice!
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: DaveM on June 24, 2016, 05:38:51 pm

Bit like a general election then.


Very different outcome to a GE though

In a GE, with a very narrow mandate, the Govt tends to be very weak and may seek to increase their mandate through co-alition. Failure to do that increases the risk of either not passing their policies or even a repeated GE being forced.

A Govt with a large majority at a GE will be stronger, as they have a greater mandate by the electorate.

This referendum has wound up with a tiny, tiny majority for the winning side, and the risks of that side winning are very grave and most critically cannot be reversed through a subsequent election or a change in views over a four-year term resulting in that govt being outsted. This is for good. Zero chance of reversal. Permanent.

And thats why I don't like the tiny majority here, and feel it will be more destructive than anythig as the country is so divided.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Russ on June 24, 2016, 05:42:26 pm

Guy on Facebook I have been debating with for the past month has just told me the pound "will be back in a few days, or weeks at the most. You want some advice? Buy pounds."

I'm not taking his advice!


That's only really an option open to you if you already own USD in reasonable quantity.

You might wish to point him to this excellent FT column:

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/29a7964c-3953-11e6-9a05-82a9b15a8ee7.html#axzz4CW1zDoia
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Mike B. on June 24, 2016, 05:43:36 pm

I was illustrating a point, rather than suggesting it. Perhaps you missed that.


It's possible I did. Have you seen evidence that a significant percentage of fence-sitters who eventually chose/fell into Leave and/or the electoral no-shows are already regretting their (lack of) actions and, if so, for what reasons? If it was just a doodling of your fevered imagination, then please stop being a time-travelling, teasing titcake
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Guru on June 24, 2016, 05:55:11 pm

Bit like a general election then.


Except that a GE has a term of 4/5 years. There have been plenty of times over the last 30 years when an election has not gone the way I had hoped. But there was always another one a few years away and by and large things have hovered within a few degrees of the centre ground.

And odious politicians would come and go (except for Norman Tebbit who was on the telly this morning)

This is a one way ticket.

And anyone who claims this outcome was not largely driven by xenophobia (and racism) is kidding themselves.

Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: DaveM on June 24, 2016, 05:57:15 pm

It's possible I did. Have you seen evidence that a significant percentage of fence-sitters who eventually chose/fell into Leave and/or the electoral no-shows are already regretting their (lack of) actions and, if so, for what reasons? If it was just a doodling of your fevered imagination, then please stop being a time-travelling, teasing titcake


No idea what you are on about, and don't have the energy to argue with people who just seem to be being argumentative rather than contributing.

Anyway, off out now to a poker game with a bunch of fellow remain-ers so plenty of gnashingof teeth can happen in between hands...
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Mike B. on June 24, 2016, 06:02:28 pm

No idea what you are on about, and don't have the energy to argue with people who just seem to be being argumentative rather than contributing.


The part of your post quoted suggested that if there was a rewind based on events since the result was announced and we did it again with that knowledge, the result might be very different. I asked you for evidence of what I otherwise see as a ridiculous assumption – being deliberately argumentative is most certainly a product of your imagination.

Enjoy your poker game.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Russ on June 24, 2016, 06:05:55 pm

It's possible I did. Have you seen evidence that a significant percentage of fence-sitters who eventually chose/fell into Leave and/or the electoral no-shows are already regretting their (lack of) actions and, if so, for what reasons? If it was just a doodling of your fevered imagination, then please stop being a time-travelling, teasing titcake


Bit early for evidence of a significant percentage, but there's plenty of anecdotal evidence out there for it.

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/i-really-regret-my-vote-now-the-brexit-voters-who-wish-theyd-voted-to-remain-a3280361.html
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Mike B. on June 24, 2016, 06:12:36 pm

Bit early for evidence of a significant percentage, but there's plenty of anecdotal evidence out there for it.

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/i-really-regret-my-vote-now-the-brexit-voters-who-wish-theyd-voted-to-remain-a3280361.html


OK, thanks. Nothing of substance, though, really.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on June 24, 2016, 06:13:04 pm

The part of your post quoted suggested that if there was a rewind based on events since the result was announced and we did it again with that knowledge, the result might be very different. I asked you for evidence of what I otherwise



Turnout was considerably higher in areas expected to vote Leave than in areas expected to vote Remain. Is that good enough?
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Mike B. on June 24, 2016, 06:17:56 pm

Turnout was considerably higher in areas expected to vote Leave than in areas expected to vote Remain. Is that good enough?


But overall turnout was still higher than predicted wasn't it - perhaps I misheard that during the coverage? I think it's a weak argument anyway, if I'm honest.

Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Russ on June 24, 2016, 06:24:48 pm

I think it's a weak argument anyway, if I'm honest.


I don't think Leave voters get to dismiss anything as a "weak argument" right now.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on June 24, 2016, 06:28:24 pm

But overall turnout was still higher than predicted wasn't it - perhaps I misheard that during the coverage? I think it's a weak argument anyway, if I'm honest.


It's a perfectly valid argument. Turnout overall was high. However, the average figure masks the fact that turnout was considerably above average in Leave areas and considerably lower in Remain areas. For example, Glasgow voted 66.6% in favour of remain on a turnout of 56.2%. On the other hand, Thurrock voted 72.3% in favour of Leave on a turnout of 72.7%. There are many more such examples. Had the Glasgow turnout been the same as the Thurrock turnout then there would have been almost 50,000 extra Remain votes in Glasgow alone. Across the board turnout was generally significantly lower in areas voting Remain than areas voting Leave, particularly in London where, as mentioned, appalling weather hampered voters.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Richoriginal on June 24, 2016, 06:29:10 pm

And the majority of Lincolnshire, which has a large Eastern European population, also voted to leave by a significant margin.


I can't find the article I read it in right now, but I think the migration it was talking about was the 300,000 immigrants that have entered the country in the past year or so and where they were living, rather than historical immigrants from many years ago.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: lurker7 on June 24, 2016, 06:38:05 pm
Corbyn out because Labour supporters didn't 100% back Remain?  Blairite opportunists alert!

(http://i64.tinypic.com/2w7eszl.png)

That fella in charge of the Lib Dems should f*ck off then, 30% of their fans put the X next to Leave.  The LIB DEMS.  You know, the party that's Europhile to the core.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: redeye on June 24, 2016, 06:41:21 pm
4% of UKIP voters went for "in". If ever there was any doubt some people should not be given the vote.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Rich B on June 24, 2016, 06:41:41 pm
How the f*ck can they possibly know that
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Mike B. on June 24, 2016, 06:45:26 pm

It's a perfectly valid argument. Turnout overall was high. However, the average figure masks the fact that turnout was considerably above average in Leave areas and considerably lower in Remain areas. For example, Glasgow voted 66.6% in favour of remain on a turnout of 56.2%. On the other hand, Thurrock voted 72.3% in favour of Leave on a turnout of 72.7%. There are many more such examples. Had the Glasgow turnout been the same as the Thurrock turnout then there would have been almost 50,000 extra Remain votes in Glasgow alone. Across the board turnout was generally significantly lower in areas voting Remain than areas voting Leave, particularly in London where, as mentioned, appalling weather hampered voters.


If we assume that a significant majority of the absentees would have voted Remain rather than Leave then yes, the result might have been closer - perhaps even reversed. It's quite a speculative leap, though.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Russ on June 24, 2016, 06:46:13 pm

If we assume that a significant majority of the absentees would have voted Remain rather than Leave then yes, the result might have been closer - perhaps even reversed. It's quite a speculative leap though.


Not really, he's simply extrapolating known data. It's in fact the exact opposite of speculative.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on June 24, 2016, 06:47:34 pm

If we assume that a significant majority of the absentees would have voted Remain rather than Leave then yes, the result might have been closer - perhaps even reversed. It's quite a speculative leap, though.


No it's not; it's called extrapolating. Take the votes as they were split in the referendum and then scale up to see what would have been the result had the turnout been higher. It's a pretty simple concept in statistics.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Mike B. on June 24, 2016, 06:49:37 pm

Not really, he's simply extrapolating known data. It's in fact the exact opposite of speculative.


By assuming the final split percentage for the target area amonst all absentees? What happens with a 100% turnout for the nation, in that case?
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on June 24, 2016, 06:55:11 pm

By assuming the final split percentage for the target area amonst all absentees? What happens with a 100% turnout for the nation, in that case?


You would get a an aggregate which would not be representative. I already explained the disparities in the regions which voted each way; to extrapolate correctly you have to go to the lowest aggregate to which you have access, in this case the council regions. Extrapolating from a high turnout increases votes for both, but by less than extrapolating the results for a low turnout. Scaling up all councils would increase votes for both sides, but Remain would scale up much more and almost certainly eclipse Leave, particularly as turnout was considerably lower in London where the highest population concentration is based. I don't have time to work through all 382 council area results without the full dataset, but sampling the highest percentage vote regions for each side strongly supports the argument that turnout played a considerable role in the overall result.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on June 24, 2016, 06:57:59 pm
Some food for thought. We just became a global experiment:
Britain Just Did the World a Huge Favour (http://finance.yahoo.com/news/britain-just-did-world-huge-000000393.html).
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Russ on June 24, 2016, 07:00:20 pm

By assuming the final split percentage for the target area amonst all absentees? What happens with a 100% turnout for the nation, in that case?


But it's not assuming anything. It's taking established splits by region and applying those numbers to the totality. It's the core essence of how statistics are calculated and it's a long established and proven science.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: RD on June 24, 2016, 07:04:01 pm

But it's not assuming anything. It's taking established splits by region and applying those numbers to the totality. It's the core essence of how statistics are calculated and it's a long established and proven science.


Yeah well, you can prove anything with facts
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Mike B. on June 24, 2016, 07:07:15 pm

You would get a an aggregate which would not be representative. I already explained the disparities in the regions which voted each way; to extrapolate correctly you have to go to the lowest aggregate to which you have access, in this case the council regions. Extrapolating from a high turnout increases votes for both, but by less than extrapolating the results for a low turnout. Scaling up all councils would increase votes for both sides, but Remain would scale up much more and almost certainly eclipse Leave, particularly as turnout was considerably lower in London where the highest population concentration is based. I don't have time to work through all 382 council area results without the full dataset, but sampling the highest percentage vote regions for each side strongly supports the argument that turnout played a considerable role in the overall result.


Fair enough and I wouldn't dream of asking you to perform that, but isn't that the only way to get a real idea of 'what might have been' rather than only use favourable data sets? What's the error margin with such extrapolation where your unknowns are supposedly sentient individuals making a once in a lifetime decision?

I can't really answer you and Russ on the same topic, so excuse me if I don't reply to him as well. I'll go and do some homework myself on this anyway and probably get to answer my own questions.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Russ on June 24, 2016, 07:31:47 pm

Fair enough and I wouldn't dream of asking you to perform that, but isn't that the only way to get a real idea of 'what might have been' rather than only use favourable data sets? What's the error margin with such extrapolation where your unknowns are supposedly sentient individuals making a once in a lifetime decision?

I can't really answer you and Russ on the same topic, so excuse me if I don't reply to him as well. I'll go and do some homework myself on this anyway and probably get to answer my own questions.


http://www.statisticshowto.com/how-to-calculate-margin-of-error/

The short answer is that such a huge proportion of such a massive dataset almost certainly has a tiny statistical margin of error.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Mike B. on June 24, 2016, 07:49:55 pm

http://www.statisticshowto.com/how-to-calculate-margin-of-error/

The short answer is that such a huge proportion of such a massive dataset almost certainly has a tiny statistical margin of error.


Yes, thanks. I do understand what karlmark is saying (though I had to remind myself what extrapolation was in statistical terms) and of course you can't take the total result vs. total abstentions but have to extrapolate every council region and then add them all together if that's the most detailed data available.

I think my poker game is calling for tonight.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on June 24, 2016, 08:05:45 pm

Yes, thanks. I do understand what karlmark is saying (though I had to remind myself what extrapolation was in statistical terms) and of course you can't take the total result vs. total abstentions but have to extrapolate every council region and then add them all together if that's the most detailed data available.

I think my poker game is calling for tonight.


Need to refresh your probability calculations! Good luck!
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on June 24, 2016, 08:07:17 pm

Yeah well, you can prove anything with facts


Lies, Damn lies, statistics and the Leave campaign...
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: BrettWilliams on June 24, 2016, 08:09:32 pm
Fawaz has missed a trick. Would have been a great day to sneak Steve Evans in under the radar.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on June 24, 2016, 08:34:30 pm
Last thing for me today (I'm sure you'll all be glad to hear and I'm exhausted); one overlooked part of all this is the UK borrowing rates. When the Leave vote was confirmed, the price of UK Government debt slumped, meaning that interest rates rose. In other words, if the government had to sell bonds to raise funds to cover the deficit they would have paid a higher rate. From opening this morning, the interest rates on UK government debt rose from well below 1% to around 3.5%. The price subsequently fell to about 1.5%, which signals that the BoE may well have stepped in.
Not a good sign considering how many bonds the UK has to issue to cover the deficit. I suspect that any so-called bonus from removing payments to the EU will be eaten up by increased interest payments as new debt is issued unless the BoE prints lots more money and buys the debt itself. In other words, re-implement the policies that were adopted at the depths of the financial crisis. Added to that we have all the ratings agencies either saying they are going to downgrade the status of UK debt or place it on negative outlook (which we didn't have during the crisis - all debt was rated AAA at that time) which will make the debt even less attractive to investors and things could become quite tricky.
Just another FACT to mull over on this Friday...
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on June 24, 2016, 09:00:02 pm
And, and, and... Sorry, I can't stop myself, but this has been cathartic and I now feel that I can do something.
Anyway, very last note before I pass out on the sofa.
The missus is already getting requests in from firms on how the Leave vote affects data protection, privacy etc. Not only does this increase costs to business, but it is yet another area of uncertainty to throw into the mix. The EU has been very good at protecting our rights online, and that is one more protection we have thrown away...
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: lurker7 on June 24, 2016, 09:37:27 pm
Just saw on Bloomberg (it's probably olde newse) that Morgan Stanley will be relocating from London to either Dublin or Frankfurt.  They're not that frit of a potential EU transaction tax it appears.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on June 24, 2016, 11:02:32 pm

Just saw on Bloomberg (it's probably olde newse) that Morgan Stanley will be relocating from London to either Dublin or Frankfurt.  They're not that frit of a potential EU transaction tax it appears.


Yes. One of the first things what will happen is the banks in London will lose what is called their "EU Passport". In other words, they will lose their right to freely provide financial exports to the EU (http://www.investmenteurope.net/regions/brexit-loss-of-passporting-rights-could-halve-uk-exports/). Any wonder London was so keen to stay? OF course this affects us all, not just the greedy banks. The UK runs a surplus on financial services and is the global centre for Foreign Exchange transactions. We've effectively given up one of the few areas where we are still a world leader by voting out of the EU. This will be implemented fairly quickly, so expect to see more of these stories popping up over the coming weeks as the financial sector prepares for Exit.
Did the Leave campaign not mention that one? Must have been a simple oversight...
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Richoriginal on June 24, 2016, 11:06:12 pm

Fawaz has missed a trick. Would have been a great day to sneak Steve Evans in under the radar.


You can't sneak Steve Evans anywhere.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Muswell on June 25, 2016, 12:50:53 am
I think my 8 year old, (whose Mother is Italian and whom i met in London), who called me from Rome, where she is on holiday, said it best,  'did you see the news? why did they do that, thats sad - why are they so silly"

yesterdays vote resolved one questions for me , although as expressed earlier it was unlikely we would move back, now its guaranteed.

Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: noodlé on June 25, 2016, 01:33:19 am

It's a perfectly valid argument. Turnout overall was high. However, the average figure masks the fact that turnout was considerably above average in Leave areas and considerably lower in Remain areas. For example, Glasgow voted 66.6% in favour of remain on a turnout of 56.2%. On the other hand, Thurrock voted 72.3% in favour of Leave on a turnout of 72.7%. There are many more such examples. Had the Glasgow turnout been the same as the Thurrock turnout then there would have been almost 50,000 extra Remain votes in Glasgow alone. Across the board turnout was generally significantly lower in areas voting Remain than areas voting Leave, particularly in London where, as mentioned, appalling weather hampered voters.


if the trend of lower turnouts in all the 'remain' areas was comparable then, unless they *all* had that london weather, the weather itself wasn't a factor.

i just wonder why all these 'remainers' didn't bother. everyone knew it would be close. a remain (non) voter who couldn't be bothered is every bit as bad as a leave voter who just wanted to stick it to the romanians.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: DaveM on June 25, 2016, 02:00:02 am
Does anyone know - it certainly wasn't front and centre of the leave or remain campaigns - what the estimated cost for EU exit in terms of legal costs are likely to be? I would assume it would be astronomical.

Also, spare a thought for the poor people in Gibralta in all of this. Massive vote for Remain and a potentially untenable situation and challenge with Spain on the horizon.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Richoriginal on June 25, 2016, 06:27:28 am
And the people of Northern Ireland, particularly the ones that cross the border every day for work and all that. And the cost of now "securing" that border....
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Richoriginal on June 25, 2016, 07:51:24 am
This mornings great exit news.

USA confirm earlier statement that uk is "at back of queue to negotiate trade deals"

The head civil servant who has looked after eu trade deals as said that because for the past 40 years we've negotiated as an eu block, we don't have enough trade deal negotiators. At best we have 20 people. We need hundreds so uk business can trade anywhere.

There is no plan. No one has a clue.

Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: RD on June 25, 2016, 08:16:09 am
Just at Dover trying to get to France. Surprisingly quiet, thought it would be full of Jonny Foreigners fleeing now that 'we've got our country back'
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Andyp on June 25, 2016, 09:51:29 am

And the people of Northern Ireland, particularly the ones that cross the border every day for work and all that. And the cost of now "securing" that border....


Yes a united Ireland has never made more sense than now.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: donnyred on June 25, 2016, 10:28:01 am

Yes a united Ireland has never made more sense than now.
A united Ireland is a dream for every Irishman, If only this could happen.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on June 25, 2016, 10:50:27 am

A united Ireland is a dream for every Irishman, If only this could happen.


It's a dream for the Nationalist community in Northern Ireland, but not not for the Unionists, unless you missed the thirty or so years of bloodshed and violence?
Northern Ireland has received considerable funding from the EU over the years to rebuild shattered communities; that's yet more of the supposed £350m per week saving that needs to be earmarked to be spent. Hang on; what does that leave for the NHS again?
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: DaveM on June 25, 2016, 12:30:32 pm
Just as another little anecdote about the daftness of the leave vote and how there could be a delayed reaction to the leave vote by people who realise eventually they have been duped....

Was talking to my dad last night, who lives in mid-Wales. He plays billiards at a local working mens club and was talking a couple of  months ago to two local farmers. Both said they were planning on voting remain, as they weren't affected by immigration and received good subsidies from the EU without which they would struggle to survive etc.

He saw them again last week and the subject came up again and they were suddenly saying they were voting Leave. He asked them why and they said it was because they felt it was right (ie. Make Britain Great Again!) and the leave campaign had confirmed that they would continue to get all the subsidies through savings made by not paying the EU 'membership fee'.



Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on June 25, 2016, 12:38:29 pm


He saw them again last week and the subject came up again and they were suddenly saying they were voting Leave. He asked them why and they said it was because they felt it was right (ie. Make Britain Great Again!) and the leave campaign had confirmed that they would continue to get all the subsidies through savings made by not paying the EU 'membership fee'.


You mean the same savings that are going to fund the NHS? Will there be anything left for the poor old NHS? How shocking.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Guru on June 25, 2016, 12:46:07 pm

You mean the same savings that are going to fund the NHS? Will there be anything left for the poor old NHS? How shocking.


Cornwall having voted overwhelmingly to leave also want assurance that their subsidy will be maintained

Never has £350 million (sorry that was a mistake) had to go so far
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Andyp on June 25, 2016, 01:01:52 pm

Cornwall having voted overwhelmingly to leave also want assurance that their subsidy will be maintained

Never has £350 million (sorry that was a mistake) had to go so far


Would this be a good time to tell the Cornish and Welsh what to do? I'm all for this idea for an indepedent London along the lines of Singapore. (That's a joke for Ingo's benefit).
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on June 25, 2016, 01:35:04 pm
The more I see of BJ post-vote the more I realise that he wasn't expecting this. Of course, we were aware before the vote that Leave had no clear policies, relying instead on rhetoric and shooting down all the, admittedly pathetic, Remain campaign points. Now we have exited, it is incredibly clear that they are clueless and didn't expect victory. As a result we are currently (not) being ruled by a bunch of headless chickens with no means of calming nerves or soothing the acrimony that this has caused.
As far as BJ is concerned, when he stood on his turntable and revolved to the direction that would best serve his needs, in this case Leave, I think he made a clear political calculation that the best way of grabbing the ultimate prize was to back the Leave campaign in the belief that it would fail, but would burnish his credentials with the overwhelmingly Eurosceptic Conservative Party membership thus putting him in prime position for the party leadership. Clearly that calculation has gone horribly wrong and he looks like a rabbit in the headlights, dazed and unsure as braves the vitriol and contempt of the Londoners who, until very recently, held him in high regards. The irony is that in his quest for the leadership and destruction of his own leader, he has removed any possibility of achieving that prize.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Lessred on June 25, 2016, 02:02:12 pm
Don't you think that he will be the new pm then?
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Lessred on June 25, 2016, 02:03:02 pm
I think in 2 years time we will be sold a Norway style compromise. All the bad bits but no say in matters....
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: garf on June 25, 2016, 02:28:05 pm

The more I see of BJ post-vote the more I realise that he wasn't expecting this.


This makes sense to me. If true it beggars believe  that neither Cameron (in offering the referendum) nor BJ realised how many racist / xenophobic sh!ts there are in this country (a quick look around colleagues should have given a clue). More significantly it was a huge political miscalculation to overlook how easy it would be for a lobby with no responsibility to harness this.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Russ on June 25, 2016, 02:33:23 pm
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/nigel-farage-wants-second-referendum-7985017#rlabs=6%20rt$category%20p$3
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Richoriginal on June 25, 2016, 02:37:19 pm
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on June 25, 2016, 02:48:37 pm
I'm reading that although the Conservative party members love BJ, the Parliamentary party is not so keen. We shall see.
My own petition calling for the resignation of John Redwood will be live soon. Will post link once it's ready.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Simon. Not Steve or Nazimon on June 25, 2016, 02:51:40 pm
I've always assumed that if we left we'd end up in a situation similar to Norway but remaining outside Schengen, so basically where we are in terms of trade and movement. That's clearly in the best interests of both parties.

Where that would leave people who've spent the last two months saying we'd get 350m a week back (we'd still have to pay in) and people who think all the imigrants are going to be kicked out is anyone's guess.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: DaveM on June 25, 2016, 02:52:27 pm

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/nigel-farage-wants-second-referendum-7985017#rlabs=6%20rt$category%20p$3


Just put that on my facebook wall. Ridiculous that no-one has challenged him on this now
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Simon. Not Steve or Nazimon on June 25, 2016, 02:53:01 pm

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215


That's bollocks though. You can't change the rules after the referendum if you don't like the result.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: tricky on June 25, 2016, 02:55:57 pm

I think in 2 years time we will be sold a Norway style compromise. All the bad bits but no say in matters....


Sold by whom? It's a bad deal but early indications, if you believe the suggestions coming out of Brussels, are that it wont even be on the table. The starting position of the EU is to ensure that Britain can only secure a poor deal, to discourage other member states from travelling down that route. That's even assuming that Britain can cobble together a government that actually has a policy and can deliver legislation on the issue, can round up a competent negotiating team, and can stabilise internal tensions and actually assemble a coherent Britain to actually negotiate with (The Scotland, Ireland, London question, being the obvious ones).

While all this is going on, and f*ck knows how long that will be, There will be little inward investment into the country.  The uncertainty means that most global companies net position will be to withdraw from the UK, not to risk enhanced operations here. I personally had advance notice that (at least some) global trading businesses had a strategic plan to extract investment from the UK immediately in the event of a leave vote.  I strongly suspect that there are teams of people, across many financial institutions, withdrawing as much of the funds that they have tied up here as they can without collapsing the UK financial system as a whole. At the same time Frankfurt, et all, are telling them to come on in, the water is lovely, calm waters here, and there is scope for everyone to make some coin on the back of the UK's loss.

So GDP plummets, the pound collapses, manufacturing and service sectors all decline, the bank of England, and our political overlords (assuming we can find any who want the job) all have to deal with stopping our heads going under (a very tough ask indeed), along with sorting out our internal problems, before even beginning to negotiate with potential trade partners (no rush, the Eu wont negotiate much, we'll have to bend over, we will have to be their bitch or we just wont get any action, and the good old US of A have said we are at the back of the queue when it comes to negotiating trade deals). Rather than help us do whatever we want, it seems that the global community has decided to pick at our carcass instead.

Still, this is all understood and has been gamed by the leave strategists and boffins, non? Err, it rather looks like they haven't given it a moments thought, unfortunately. There have been a string of rather embarrassing interviews with political leave campaigners.  When questioned about the impact on issues key to their success, like immigration, the blushing and backsliding is almost evident.  Politicians are a cold bunch, but i don't think I've ever seen so many look like rabbits in the headlights. In the early hours of the morning one of the lead leave campaigners give a thoroughly measured performance triumphantly celebrating victory, then quickly turned to a blushing teenager when questioned over whether being free from the EU now meant that immigration could be controlled....I swear the c*nt looked like he'd shat himself while he waffled about the difference between immigration and access to skills and labour.

I honestly think that the leave campaign was almost entirely predicated on the principle that they could bang out a few soundbites, establish their credentials as being 'of the people' on pad along as we were with their popularity enhanced. I actually don't think for a moment they even believed their own stinking pile of bullsh!t, and they never thought for a moment that an educated western democracy could so spectacularly commit economic suicide.

Everything that has happened since the vote has the air of "Oh f*ck. What on earth do we do now?".

Well someone had better work something out quickly, and start unwinding the accelerating downward economic spiral before almost every-f*cking-thing goes down the plug-hole.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Richoriginal on June 25, 2016, 03:00:37 pm

That's bollocks though. You can't change the rules after the referendum if you don't like the result.


I posted it in response to Russ' post about what Farage has said if the result was close. So if he was going to call for another referendum if it had been this close to remain, why can't people have a try the other way?

Yeah, it might be bollocks, but it's trying something isn't it?

Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: DaveM on June 25, 2016, 03:08:18 pm

That's bollocks though. You can't change the rules after the referendum if you don't like the result.


It doesn't hurt for the displeasure in this all to be formally recognised though.

Perhaps we need a referendum to change the rules for future referendums too :)

f*ck democracy if this is what it serves up. Seriously - we democratically elect representatives to govern us and yet hold a democractic referendum for such a critical element and defy the view of the majority of those elected representatives - based on a campaign one top short of a circus.

A tiny, tiny percentage of the electorate had a clear view of all the complex facets to this decision - the rest either have a superficial knowledge of the EU or didn't have the faintest idea about it. But 'the people have spoken'....bollocks. This should have been decided by people who (a) knew what they were talking about and (b) had suitable plans in place either way.

If the 'leave' campaign had a strategy, perhaps even had some deals outlined tentatively and a timetable for reform then it may have been a compelling argument.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Lessred on June 25, 2016, 03:38:52 pm
Apparently Merkel wants to push for us to be associates of the EU, the inference being along the lines of Norway.

I don't buy the apocalyptic scenario, I think it will be worse than if we stayed in, maybe a recession, certainly a decline in GDP (from where it would have been), but I don't buy a total collapse. In reality the EU will want some sort of free trade deal with us. Although if I were them id be really helpful on goods but be a right b@stard on financial services.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: tricky on June 25, 2016, 03:46:25 pm
With respect, I don't think it's in other countries interests to bollster our economy, when as an alternative they can just lift our stuff. 

We've gone all in without any cards. The dream sold by the leave campaign was an evocation of some sort of mythical downton-abbey-world, with an endless supply of exotic nubile young foreigners begging to suck us off. I suspect that the reality is that the rest of the world will hand us some rope, a chair, and a plastic bag, and tell us to get on with our strangle w@nk.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: DaveM on June 25, 2016, 03:46:51 pm

Apparently Merkel wants to push for us to be associates of the EU, the inference being along the lines of Norway.

I don't buy the apocalyptic scenario, I think it will be worse than if we stayed in, maybe a recession, certainly a decline in GDP (from where it would have been), but I don't buy a total collapse. In reality the EU will want some sort of free trade deal with us. Although if I were them id be really helpful on goods but be a right b@stard on financial services.


'worse than if we stayed in'... exactly

Of course we will survive all this. Britain isn't going to suddenly turn into some neglected wasteland or anything, but 'we' have voted to make things worse in many, many ways with zero plan as to how to avert this and deliver on the wild strap-lines the leave campaign surfed on.

People talk as though it is as simple as picking up a phone and calling our mates in Germany or Spain and saying 'Come on chaps, lets thrash out a trade deal that suits us both', as though either the UK or Germany or Spain or any other EU country has massive teams of people experienced and active in thrashing out trade-deals. The reality is there are bugger all people doing this as it's all done at an EU level. That's actually going to be a real issue for the UK, as we haven't had to sort out trade deals like this for years and there are few people able (and qualified) to do this effectively. Yet another thing no-one on the leave side really thought through
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: The GasMan on June 25, 2016, 04:17:48 pm
We can save a sh!t-load of money by ceasing to contribute to the EU defense forces. Lets face it, our natural enemies have to get through the European block countries to get to us. Or, perhaps, we may offer to continue our substantial support in return for more reasonable trade agreements.
There are many elements to successful trade agreements that have bugger all to do with markets.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Nottingham Florist on June 25, 2016, 04:53:39 pm

With respect, I don't think it's in other countries interests to bollster our economy, when as an alternative they can just lift our stuff. 

We've gone all in without any cards. The dream sold by the leave campaign was an evocation of some sort of mythical downton-abbey-world, with an endless supply of exotic nubile young foreigners begging to suck us off. I suspect that the reality is that the rest of the world will hand us some rope, a chair, and a plastic bag, and tell us to get on with our strangle w@nk.


Will Spain supply an orange?
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: tricky on June 25, 2016, 04:56:18 pm

We can save a sh!t-load of money by ceasing to contribute to the EU defense forces. Lets face it, our natural enemies have to get through the European block countries to get to us. Or, perhaps, we may offer to continue our substantial support in return for more reasonable trade agreements.
There are many elements to successful trade agreements that have bugger all to do with markets.


Are you sure? Are we not going to have to defend our borders, and go it alone to defend our interests abroad? Our declining armed services are already stretched. We might potentially lose access to intelligence and European collaboration over law enforcement. Have you ever heard of boats and planes?

Suppose we lose the agreement to enforce border controls in Calais, and have to create a border around Northern Ireland...or Scotland....or even London (however that is defined)? Would that require more or less resources? suppose we find loads of immigrants at these borders, what the f*ckity f*ck so we do with them if the country through which they have transited want nothing to do with a level of responsibility for them (Le f*cking problem de vous, matey)?

Nato partly negates any consideration  of "natural enemy" whether we are in or out of Europe....but you can't gurantee that Europe will be now, or at any point in the future, our friends.  We have a long hard history of them being absolutely our natural enemies.  So we need an armed force capable of maintaining our obligations....without any 'help' from our 'friends'.

You can't in all honesty tell me who "we" will be, when we are negotiating, what we are negotiating, or how long that will take. You have absolutely no idea what the worlds political and economic framework will be, nor what our part will be in it.

These successful trade agreements, however and whenever these come about, will only account for around 20-30% of our GDP, assuming we manage to keep London, if they do not include financial services (assuming we have any left).  Who knows what will be left to keep when we finally manage unwind, to some degree, this clusterf*ck?

Saving money is a massive misnomer....we are already in an economic environment that we have lost (from GDP) more money than we could have "saved" in decades. We are already not looking at re-distributing a pile of cash that has been saved, but scratching around behind the sofa to scrabble together as many pennies as possible to keep things running...it wont work...we will have to issue bonds, at increased interest rates (to attract investors on the back of our devalued credit rating)...let's be clear, this is selling off our future GDP for a return now.  We will be giving our economic activity away for a long time into the future, to pay for the deficit created now, so that morons can shout "We got our country back" which actually means nine tenths of f*ck all. Because it seems that the backsliding b@stards who have 'won' the country this 'triumph' are already pretty much conceding that it wont look anything like the entirely false impression that they created of it, and that they have almost no f*cking idea on how to deliver on that anyway.

Strong leadership would never have put us in this position in the first place.  They certainly wouldn't have squealed and hid in the pantry, away from nanny, having dropped such an unbelievable bollock.

The referendum is not legally binding.  The government should take the advice on board, tell the EU to stop griping about us f*cking off sharpish, make an announcement that the EU can chill their f*cking jets. By treaty we are a full and complete member of the EU with all rights and responsibilities in place, we will continue to operate as such.  Meantime we will form an advisory group to negotiate towards a situation where we will activate article 50.  Tie the f*cking thing up in committee for years, get the EU to negotiate a significant deal if they want to end uncertainty, so that we can take the new deal back to the people of the UK.

Whatever we do, under no f*cking circumstances, should we let the likes of Gove, Johnson, and Farage, flush away our current status, so they can nibble at the left over picnic table of our former economy.


Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Simon. Not Steve or Nazimon on June 25, 2016, 05:01:12 pm

I posted it in response to Russ' post about what Farage has said if the result was close. So if he was going to call for another referendum if it had been this close to remain, why can't people have a try the other way?




I hope and expect he'd have been mocked mercilessly if, having lost, he'd asked for another go straight away. It's ridiculous.

Tricky's strategy of getting this bogged down in negotiations until everyone's forgotten about it is the winner in my view.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Richoriginal on June 25, 2016, 05:45:51 pm
DavidLammy: Wake up. We do not have to do this. We can stop this madness through a vote in Parliament. My statement below https://t.co/V8f9Yo1TZd
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Richoriginal on June 25, 2016, 05:53:04 pm



Suppose we lose the agreement to enforce border controls in Calais, and have to create a border around Northern Ireland...or Scotland....or even London (however that is defined)? Would that require more or less resources? suppose we find loads of immigrants at these borders, what the f*ckity f*ck so we do with them if the country through which they have transited want nothing to do with a level of responsibility for them (Le f*cking problem de vous, matey)?




I think I refered to this a few days ago, but yes, The French could end the Le Touquet agreement (https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/mar/03/calais-border-treaty-brexit-what-is-france-saying) and the Calais "jungle" could move to Dover.

Nice one Brexiters!
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Simon. Not Steve or Nazimon on June 25, 2016, 06:24:20 pm

DavidLammy: Wake up. We do not have to do this. We can stop this madness through a vote in Parliament. My statement below https://t.co/V8f9Yo1TZd


That's one way to make Nigel Farage prime minister...
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Richoriginal on June 25, 2016, 07:51:22 pm
It's just getting worse.

(https://img.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeed-static/static/2016-06/24/11/asset/buzzfeed-prod-fastlane03/sub-buzz-23442-1466781115-1.png)
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: jp on June 25, 2016, 08:30:57 pm

That's one way to make Nigel Farage prime minister...


Wrong.

Parliament is sovereign, not the people, not the Prime Minister,  not the Head of State. Basic constitution stuff.
If Parliament passes a law to say that we are staying in the EU, or that there will be a further referendum, then that is the will of the people. That's how it works. If someone wants to create a popular uprising and change the consitutional settlement of the last 500 years then they are welcome to have  a go, but I bet no one on the leave side feels strongly enough about about it. So we work within  the framework that exists.

The issue is persuading enough MPs to support such a bill, and  making the political case to the nation  for that bill. Hard, you say? Harder than years of economic stagnation and a perilously uncertain future? We have let the likes of Farage and Johnson take us for a ride,  and dupe the electorate. Can we really not beat them?
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: DaveM on June 25, 2016, 08:33:49 pm

The referendum is not legally binding.  The government should take the advice on board, tell the EU to stop griping about us f*cking off sharpish, make an announcement that the EU can chill their f*cking jets. By treaty we are a full and complete member of the EU with all rights and responsibilities in place, we will continue to operate as such.  Meantime we will form an advisory group to negotiate towards a situation where we will activate article 50.  Tie the f*cking thing up in committee for years, get the EU to negotiate a significant deal if they want to end uncertainty, so that we can take the new deal back to the people of the UK.



That is an outstanding strategy
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: DaveM on June 25, 2016, 08:52:17 pm

Wrong.

Parliament is sovereign, not the people, not the Prime Minister,  not the Head of State. Basic constitution stuff.
If Parliament passes a law to say that we are staying in the EU, or that there will be a further referendum, then that is the will of the people. That's how it works. If someone wants to create a popular uprising and change the consitutional settlement of the last 500 years then they are welcome to have  a go, but I bet no one on the leave side feels strongly enough about about it. So we work within  the framework that exists.

The issue is persuading enough MPs to support such a bill, and  making the political case to the nation  for that bill. Hard, you say? Harder than years of economic stagnation and a perilously uncertain future? We have let the likes of Farage and Johnson take us for a ride,  and dupe the electorate. Can we really not beat them?


Another cracking post

I cringe when anyone states that the referendum result is the 'will of the people' when clearly a huge swathe of people didn't have a clue what the f*ck they were voting for, or were basing it on lies.

Take Cornwall. Leave campaigners allayed fears of the county losing the £60m/year injection of cash from the EU by saying not to worry, it will be covered by the money saved by not being a part of the EU. Now, there are demands for confirmation of this replacement funding as the growing realisation dawns that the leave campaigners were clearly talking bollocks.*

* or at least don't have a clue if this would actually be the case
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: DaveM on June 25, 2016, 09:02:30 pm

I hope and expect he'd have been mocked mercilessly if, having lost, he'd asked for another go straight away. It's ridiculous.


Hypothetically speaking....if Remain had won, with only 4% of the vote (roughly 2% of the total electorate) then as a remain person myself, I would have fully expected pushback from UKIP and the Leave people to say it was 'too close to call' and demanding a second referendum.

I would have been happy that remain had edged the actual vote, but unhappy that it wasn't more concrete and fully expected a further referendum somewhere along the road.

Of course, in that scenario there would be little issue with doing that. The problem the other way around is that once Article 50 is triggered, that is it. Game over.

Referendums are good for things that are relatively clear cut or are based on moral grounds. A question perhaps about capital punishment, or whether we want PR or FPTP voting perhaps. Something where there are big questions but a relatively straight forward argument for and against. Something as complex as this is, I think, outside the scope of the 'average' person to process in terms of risks and outcomes. Fine to gague the mood of the country, and perhaps spark some further investigations/planning but I'd rather have people that know what they are doing making these kind of decisions, personally. And by that I mean Talkback.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: lurker7 on June 25, 2016, 09:10:24 pm


Referendums are good for things that are relatively clear cut or are based on moral grounds. A question perhaps about capital punishment, or whether we want PR or FPTP voting perhaps. Something where there are big questions but a relatively straight forward argument for and against. Something as complex as this is, I think, outside the scope of the 'average' person to process in terms of risks and outcomes. Fine to gague the mood of the country, and perhaps spark some further investigations/planning but I'd rather have people that know what they are doing making these kind of decisions, personally. And by that I mean Talkback.


Adopting PR would have been as fundamental a change to our nation as this Referendum was, a change to the electoral system massively changes who is likely to govern in future.  Likewise independence for Scotland.  Its impact is so large, and the Question calling for a Yes/No, that it deserved a vote on its own.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: jp on June 25, 2016, 09:12:24 pm
Let's look at the practicalities of this.

Someone has got to give the EU notice that we are leaving (Art. 50). So who is volunteering for that, then? Cameron (cleverly) resigned before anyone got the chance to ask whether he was going to do it. There isn't going to be another PM for 3 months.  Does Boris the c*nt*, Gove the no-mark** or Farage the Goebbels-chancer have a strategy to deal with the catastrophic economic and foreign policy fallout which will result? Is the heir-presumptive Boris really going to push the button when he has no plan and isn't likely to get one anytime soon? No. They are going to look for a compromise.  In truth, they are in a position of weakness right now because they don't have a plan.  They need an exit strategy.



*I used to be an acquaintance of his wife. He is not an impressive character,  despite how people may have been taken in.
**One of my best mates was at Oxford with him, and again...he's a poor excuse. How the public has ever been taken in by these people is a mystery.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: lurker7 on June 25, 2016, 09:14:32 pm
Theresa May has been mentioned as a possible 'compromise candidate'.  She has John Major's charisma, so history may repeat itself.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: DaveM on June 25, 2016, 09:28:32 pm
What the Conservatives really need now is a candidate who was not part of the leave/remain campaign (not an active, campaigning part anyway), one who is respected throughout the party, who has masses of experience in foreign affairs, is surpremely adept at negotiating and has experience leading an organisation in a crisis situation.

Unfortunately, that man - William Hague - is no longer an MP

Here were his thoughts a few weeks ago, on the lack of plans...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/06/the-leave-campaign-cant-keep-dodging-the-biggest-question/
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: podnli on June 25, 2016, 09:38:49 pm

Let's look at the practicalities of this.

Someone has got to give the EU notice that we are leaving (Art. 50). So who is volunteering for that, then? Cameron (cleverly) resigned before anyone got the chance to ask whether he was going to do it. There isn't going to be another PM for 3 months.  Does Boris the c*nt*, Gove the no-mark** or Farage the Goebbels-chancer have a strategy to deal with the catastrophic economic and foreign policy fallout which will result? Is the heir-presumptive Boris really going to push the button when he has no plan and isn't likely to get one anytime soon? No. They are going to look for a compromise.  In truth, they are in a position of weakness right now because they don't have a plan.  They need an exit strategy.



*I used to be an acquaintance of his wife. He is not an impressive character,  despite how people may have been taken in.
**One of my best mates was at Oxford with him, and again...he's a poor excuse. How the public has ever been taken in by these people is a mystery.



There are liars and then there’s Boris Johnson and Michael Gove (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/25/boris-johnson-michael-gove-eu-liars)
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: garf on June 25, 2016, 09:53:20 pm

Referendums are good for things that are relatively clear cut or are based on moral grounds. A question perhaps about capital punishment,


God no. In my view that's one issue that never be put to a referendum. Having seen the way the leave campaign has just been run can you imagine the crap that would be spouted to support this? And given that any right thinking person (by which of course I mean someone who agrees with me) would view this as a massive step backwards by our society it would be crazy to take the risk.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: DaveM on June 25, 2016, 10:06:25 pm

God no. In my view that's one issue that never be put to a referendum. Having seen the way the leave campaign has just been run can you imagine the crap that would be spouted to support this? And given that any right thinking person (by which of course I mean someone who agrees with me) would view this as a massive step backwards by our society it would be crazy to take the risk.


I wasn't really suggesting that, just trying to think of subjects which - whilst important - have options based on moral grounds or at least arguments that are simpler to articulate, and not avoid
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Simon. Not Steve or Nazimon on June 25, 2016, 10:19:08 pm

Wrong.

Parliament is sovereign, not the people, not the Prime Minister,  not the Head of State. Basic constitution stuff.
If Parliament passes a law to say that we are staying in the EU, or that there will be a further referendum, then that is the will of the people. That's how it works. If someone wants to create a popular uprising and change the consitutional settlement of the last 500 years then they are welcome to have  a go, but I bet no one on the leave side feels strongly enough about about it. So we work within  the framework that exists.

The issue is persuading enough MPs to support such a bill, and  making the political case to the nation  for that bill. Hard, you say? Harder than years of economic stagnation and a perilously uncertain future? We have let the likes of Farage and Johnson take us for a ride,  and dupe the electorate. Can we really not beat them?

Wrong.

Parliament is sovereign, not the people, not the Prime Minister,  not the Head of State. Basic constitution stuff.
If Parliament passes a law to say that we are staying in the EU, or that there will be a further referendum, then that is the will of the people. That's how it works. If someone wants to create a popular uprising and change the consitutional settlement of the last 500 years then they are welcome to have  a go, but I bet no one on the leave side feels strongly enough about about it. So we work within  the framework that exists.

The issue is persuading enough MPs to support such a bill, and  making the political case to the nation  for that bill. Hard, you say? Harder than years of economic stagnation and a perilously uncertain future? We have let the likes of Farage and Johnson take us for a ride,  and dupe the electorate. Can we really not beat them?


17 million people just voted for us to leave the EU. That was non binding and parliament remains Sovereign but how do you think the next general election will go if parliament rejects that result? I think ukip sweep the country and Farage is pm
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: DaveM on June 25, 2016, 10:23:32 pm

17 million people just voted for us to leave the EU. That was non binding and parliament remains Sovereign but how do you think the next general election will go if parliament rejects that result? I think ukip sweep the country and Farage is pm


I don't

UKIP would gain votes, obviously but the usual parties, with their new leaders will still dominate proceedings

And whilst I wouldn't like it, UKIP gaining some share would be 'a price worth paying' for not f*cking up our country.

Perhaps we need to see some more pain from this vote before anything happens, coming back to Tricky's suggestion, which may help temper things.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: jp on June 25, 2016, 10:43:49 pm
Has article 50 been triggered yet? No.

http://hasarticle50beeninvoked.uk

So, who exactly is going to do it?
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Russ on June 25, 2016, 11:02:03 pm
LOLOLOLOLOL.

http://metro.co.uk/2016/06/25/furious-farage-excluded-from-committee-to-negotiate-brexit-5965707/
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Simon. Not Steve or Nazimon on June 25, 2016, 11:11:14 pm

The same reason I did in 1975, I have a quaint notion about Britain being governed by British for good or bad.


So.  Like when you wanted Freedman sacked (100+ days and no replacement) your faith in "them" to sort things out is absolute.

Sadly, "they" don't have a f*cking clue.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on June 26, 2016, 01:06:43 am

That is an outstanding strategy


There is a slight problem with Tricky's position, notwithstanding the fact that it would take great courage which I can't see anywhere given the pathetic capitulation of the Conservative Party to UKIP, and that is that the world would be pretty pissed off with us.

"Hang on, so you wiped Trillions off the value of our stock markets, caused chaos in the currency markets, spent five years roundly slating foreigners and now you're saying 'Actually, we've changed our minds'".

Like I said before, it's not just the economic and social issues at home we have to deal with; it's also the huge reputational hit that we have taken.

The referendum should never have happened in the first place; the Tory party failed to resist an infiltration by right-wing extremists. The Militant movement's attempted takeover of the Labour Party led to them being unelectable for a long time. The Tories didn't even try to fight the takeover of their party, took power and inflicted serious and lasting damage on the country. They really should be demolished come election time (it will be interesting to see any opinion polls for what they are worth), but the one thing they are good at is clinging to power.

We have basically been running without a government for the whole of this year as they have utterly preoccupied with Europe (some may say that's a good thing given their other manifesto commitments), and now we face at least another 4 months and beyond of no government whilst the Tories elect a new leader and then go into exit negotiations, followed by another lengthy period of Exit legislation clogging up parliament, all at a time when we desperately need leadership.

For possible the first time ever I find myself agreeing with Jeremy Clarkson "Right. We should have 24 hours of despair and moaning, and then we will all have to roll up our sleeves and make this sh!t shower work".

The vote will not be overturned, we will leave the EU. I've reached the acceptance phase. The Right-wing coup has succeeded and they now rule the roost. We now need to launch a counter-revolution by holding our so-called political leaders to account (on all sides), and push for a written constitution which embodies some form of PR with an elected second chamber, a constitutional court and a directly elected Prime Minister. This all needs to be part of the post-Exit solution if we are to have any hope of reuniting what remains of the UK.
Scotland is gone, and I fully support their independence (interested in hearing whether you would now vote for independence JP?). Northern Ireland is of course far more difficult and I think we need to retain the open land border with the Irish Republic to allay Nationalist fears of isolation.
Under no circumstances can we allow the current system of voting to remain if Scotland leaves the union. In the interests of democracy (that's what this referendum was about, right?) we cannot allow one party to dominate the political landscape going forward. I want proper representation, not a system introduced at the birth of parliament and largely unreformed (increased suffrage aside) for 600 or so years.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on June 26, 2016, 01:09:54 am
In the meantime, let's have some fun at BJ's expense (https://tompride.wordpress.com/2016/05/28/the-great-eu-debate-boris-johnson-vs-boris-johnson/)...
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: tricky on June 26, 2016, 01:19:00 am
You've misread my suggestion. I'm not suggesting that we tell anyone we've changed our minds. I'm suggesting we point out that It's a referendum not an act of parliament, that no f*cker has any idea how to achieve the lies that the electorate were sold and that while we work on how to do that we are a full and participating member of the EU. All of which is true and in treaty.

If someone wants to make something happen then we should suggest they agree trade deals that we find acceptable, give us concessions that we can sell to the British people, or find away of squaring the impossible circle they have made up - depending on who they are obviously. Failing that business as usual. It gives us some cards back.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: DaveM on June 26, 2016, 01:48:28 am
there is absolutely no way we should be triggering this article 50 thing until we are absolutely certain we have a workable and sane plan in place (or a very very solid timetable to do so). Right now, that looks a long way off. Possibly years.

We should not be pressured by the EU to do anything sooner, if we are not ready. As has been pointed out, we are still a member state until we inform them otherwise, and the referendum result was not us triggering an exit in itself.

The way I read Tricky's suggestion was, if during that time - the EU wish to counter propose further deals, either to enable us to reach that plan quicker then thats good. If the EU wish to counter propose concessions should we confirm we are staying, then that may be significant enough to take to the British public again.

And if we can spin that period out for minimal additional detrimental economic impact (thats a big if I grant you) in order to get those deals/concessions, then we should do.

Although personally, right now, I couldn't care less about 'democracy' and whether parliament intervene. This is too big a f*ck up to just shrug shoulders in my view, given we have no coherent plan.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Richoriginal on June 26, 2016, 07:41:59 am
Mystic Clegg before the referendum

https://inews.co.uk/opinion/comment/will-wake-vote-leave/
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Richoriginal on June 26, 2016, 07:44:33 am
I disagree with the "lets pull together to sort it out". I don't agree with it, so why should I pull together.

I'm far more interested in getting a credible opposition together. With Corbyn sacking Benn this morning, can they get someone to head the party that the disenchanted can get behind? Who's that person?
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Simon. Not Steve or Nazimon on June 26, 2016, 08:52:16 am

I disagree with the "lets pull together to sort it out". I don't agree with it, so why should I pull together.

I'm far more interested in getting a credible opposition together. With Corbyn sacking Benn this morning, can they get someone to head the party that the disenchanted can get behind? Who's that person?


Looks like we are about to find out. Guardian reporting that half of the front bench are resigning.

Jarvis seems a decent candidate, if he wants it. Time for them to look outside London (I know Miliband was MP for somewhere like Doncaster but he was hardly a native).
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: donnyred on June 26, 2016, 09:31:40 am
I can't believe the whining and moaning like spoilt little brats. You lost accept it and get on with your lives. You can't keep voting until the result suits you.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: tricky on June 26, 2016, 09:51:20 am

I can't believe the whining and moaning like spoilt little brats. You lost accept it and get on with your lives. You can't keep voting until the result suits you.


Get on with what? Tell us how to get on with it. The silence on how we actually achieve the impossible lies you've voted for is f*cking deafening.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Rich B on June 26, 2016, 10:14:01 am
So in your petulance you are demanding answers from a retired postman. Classic.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: des on June 26, 2016, 10:23:39 am
And in your world we will 'make Britain great again' based on nothing more concrete than xenophobia, union jacks and a full English breakfast?  I'm sure that will all work out fine.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Guru on June 26, 2016, 10:24:16 am

I can't believe the whining and moaning like spoilt little brats. You lost accept it and get on with your lives. You can't keep voting until the result suits you.


Seriously? From you???!!! Do you have no self awareness whatsoever????

I usually stay away from the donny-bashing on here but I have to say that comment beggars f*cking belief.
It is because of moaning old gits like you that we even reached this place.

You voted for leave on a campaign that ended up as nothing more than "blame the dirty foreigners." There are actually some reasonable voices explaining why Brexit could end up being a good thing. Yours is clearly not one of these reasonable voices.

I would buy it if the vote has been driven by a desire to get further away from the xenophobic anti-Islamic right wing that is on the march in Europe whilst trying to retain the great achievements for workers rights, climate change, medicine, science and technology, culture and exchange. And yes, a free movement of people.

But no, the campaign was "blame EU immigration." Next you will be blaming anyone who cannot demonstrate familial ties to Arthur's Round Table and who needs to go back to "where they came from." Whatever you do, don't ever blame yourself for voting for morons.

There was no strategy and no plan for this outcome: when this question was raised pre-referendum, it was "project fear" and "what do the experts know?"

And face facts, you have been duped by the likes of Bill Cash, John Redwood, Norman Tebbitt, Michael Gove and Nigel Farage. Oh, and Boris Johnson. None of whom give a sh!t about you, or your nephew. I did give a sh!t, as a taxpaying socialist but I am not sure I do any more.


So in your petulance you are demanding answers from a retired postman. Classic.

Far from it. But you would have expected the answers from those who have been campaigning for 25 years for this to happen. Rather than distancing themselves from the two pledges they did make to get votes (http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/25/leave-campaign-rows-back-key-pledges-immigration-nhs-spending)

It's not petulance, it is a very reasonable question along the lines of "ok, now what are you going to do."
To which the answer appears to be  "Err...we did not really mean what we said and we all need to work together to find the answer." You have to accept that might stick in some people's craw (48.1% of people to be precise)
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: tricky on June 26, 2016, 10:28:10 am

So in your petulance you are demanding answers from a retired postman. Classic.


I'm happy to hear from anyone. Boris, Farage, Gove, Hannan (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=t5jTRoySFfo). Trouble is they're busy right now telling us that we got the wrong end of the stick with what they are promising. I say us. I mean you two dickheads and the other idiots who bought into fairytale la-la land.

You've been sold a sick puppy. Surely even you can see that? Do you want to send it back, or have all of us have to lick up its sick forever?

What you think you have voted for will not, because it cannot, be delivered in your lifetime. In all likelihood it will never be delivered. The only question is what damage it does to the world economy, and how much it reduces whatever remains of the UK's slice of it. If we are going to have any level of comparable trade agreements, we are going to have the things that you don't want, but with less influence and prosperity. To have the things that you want we have to divorce ourselves from the modern trade environment and willingly usher in a new dark ages that will define our place in the modern world forever.  At the bottom of the pile. It is a clusterf*ck of epic proportions. It has absolutely no intellectual economic rigour whatsoever....and ultimately it's the economic wellbeing of the country that dictates standard of living and opportunity.

It's the economy, stupid.

Quote
Ratings agency Moody’s has lowered the outlook for the UK’s credit rating from stable to negative amid what it said would prove a prolonged period of uncertainty following Britain’s vote to leave the European Union.

Moody’s said the unpredictability of British decision-making had factored into its move, as had the likelihood of lower economic growth, which it said would outweigh any savings the UK might hope to get from not having to contribute to the EU budget.

“Over the longer term, should the UK not be able to secure a favourable alternative trade arrangement with the EU and other countries, the UK’s growth prospects would be materially weaker than currently expected,” the agency’s note said.

Standard and Poor’s has also warned that Britain’s top “AAA” credit rating was at risk.

Britain’s vote on Friday to leave the EU has sparked widespread turmoil and uncertainty, forcing the prime minister David Cameron to resign and wiping more than $2tn (£1.46tn) of value from markets around the world.

The governor of the Bank of England has stepped forward to calm financial markets after the Brexit vote sent the pound to its lowest level since 1985 and at one point wiped £120bn off the value of Britain’s leading shares.


That's in one trading day.  One.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: garf on June 26, 2016, 11:11:56 am

Next you will be blaming anyone who cannot demonstrate familial ties to Arthur's Round Table and who needs to go back to "where they came from."


Given that Donny is apparently Irish I have to say I find his xenophobic stance a bit puzzling. But I'm sure he's thought it through.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Andyp on June 26, 2016, 11:12:11 am
To be fair to Donny and others who voted out because they are rightly pissed off with the political establishment they can see the damage that 35 years of neo-liberal economics have done to their communities. Migrants are a useful target for those who want power but want to maintain the inequalities (Farage, Johnson, Gove). The Labour Party deserted these people under Blair and although under Corbyn we are moving back towards socialism this will take time to rebuild trust. The disgraceful behaviour of Hilary Benn et al (Tony must be turning in his grave) is a cynical opportunistic effort by the Blairities to regain control. We need a Labour Party which continues to attract young dedicated people like Jo Cox not a return to the cynical politics of Blair and Brown. Eventually a more charismatic leader than Jeremy will emerge but not a more principled one and that is what we need at the moment.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: tricky on June 26, 2016, 11:48:01 am

To be fair to Donny and others who voted out because they are rightly pissed off with the political establishment they can see the damage that 35 years of neo-liberal economics have done to their communities. Migrants are a useful target for those who want power but want to maintain the inequalities (Farage, Johnson, Gove). The Labour Party deserted these people under Blair and although under Corbyn we are moving back towards socialism this will take time to rebuild trust. The disgraceful behaviour of Hilary Benn et al (Tony must be turning in his grave) is a cynical opportunistic effort by the Blairities to regain control. We need a Labour Party which continues to attract young dedicated people like Jo Cox not a return to the cynical politics of Blair and Brown. Eventually a more charismatic leader than Jeremy will emerge but not a more principled one and that is what we need at the moment.


This outcome of this referendum vote has occurred because the political system is in absolute disrepair. It has happened because london-centric global business and market trading considerations have been allowed to take absolute precedence over regional investment and prosperity. To imagine that it can be unwound by the Labour party in it's current form is as laughable as the notion that it can be achieved by sticking two fingers up at Johnny foreigner.

I have principles and ideas.  I'm about as much overall use to the country as Jeremy Corbyn is, but I wont do as much damage because I don't have the scope to. While the Tories are culpable for offering up our head on a plate with a convenient sharp knife nearby, Labour are equally to blame for not trying to stop the country having a swish with it.

It is likely that there will have to be some measure of constitutional representative reform, that leads us to a situation where there is more collaborative consensus politics. I would favour a representative house and a legislative house.  Simply peoples voices must be heard, and the establishment must be seen to be responsive to the needs of ordinary citizens, rather than exclusively the needs of big business.

The problem is, that we are here, and it's all looking a bit too late.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: lurker7 on June 26, 2016, 12:08:25 pm
7000 people in Rushcliffe have signed that petition to rerun the referendum : own up! (http://petitionmap.unboxedconsulting.com/?petition=131215)
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: steve on June 26, 2016, 12:12:59 pm
I'm struggling to see how anyone can unite behind a view that amounts to it's all the fault of the immigrants. I've been watching telly this morning and interviews in Mansfield and Bolsover two local areas that were very much behind leaving and the reasons given were stop immigration and start making our own steel again. Neither of those things are actually going to happen so what will leaving achieve for these people other than a smaller economy and less money for the regions? When that happens no one is going to turn round and tell these people they were misled but people will tell them they need to be even more hard on immigrants, turfing them our of their communities.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Richoriginal on June 26, 2016, 01:07:20 pm

I can't believe the whining and moaning like spoilt little brats. You lost accept it and get on with your lives. You can't keep voting until the result suits you.


Conservative Leave MP, Boris backer: "there is no plan. Leave campaign don't have a post Brexit plan, Number 10 should have had one"

No plan Donny. No plan, no ideas, no clue.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: tricky on June 26, 2016, 02:16:40 pm
Entirely (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36629745). Predictable (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36628918). Catastrophe (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36628595).

Meanwhile, as our entire economy (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/confused-answers-to-the-questions-raised-by-the-referendum-7102921.html) and political system is unravelling (http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/brexit-scotland-wants-no-part-8281507#Z1gLWT0CfjvK3luC.97), the lack of answers from "Leave" (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/25/boris-johnson-michael-gove-eu-liars) is deafening.

Trading stars again tomorrow morning (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/06/25/mood-of-uncertainty-after-a-night-that-produced-as-many-question/).  Where the f*ck are the reassurances (http://home.bt.com/news/world-news/john-kerry-to-visit-brussels-and-london-for-talks-on-eu-exit-11364070034067) and plan to prevent economic collapse (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36633165)? Who is in charge (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36633595)? Who has anyone's confidence (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-36570120)? Who is actually leading any of the parliamentary parties, never mind the country?

....and we're going to sort this out quickly, decide what it is that we actually want, and successfully negotiate it with parties who have  a vested interest in doing no such thing (http://www.nwahomepage.com/news/knwa/brexit-eu-leaders-demand-quick-uk-exit-as-fallout-grows), are we? Really? Dream f*cking on.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: lurker7 on June 26, 2016, 02:43:41 pm
So how's that whole "mending Broken Britain" thing looking Cameron?
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on June 26, 2016, 02:57:26 pm

Given that Donny is apparently Irish I have to say I find his xenophobic stance a bit puzzling. But I'm sure he's thought it through.


He's probably a plastic paddy.
Because someone is Irish it doesn't mean they are incapable of bigotry (I'm not actually accusing Donny of this BTW - merely addressing the point about Irish bigotry). The Northern Irish managed to murder each other over religion, so they are perfectly capable of racism towards different skin tone. Some of the bigotry in the unionist community in particular would make your toes curl.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on June 26, 2016, 02:59:07 pm


Trading stars again tomorrow morning (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/06/25/mood-of-uncertainty-after-a-night-that-produced-as-many-question/).  Where the f*ck are the reassurances (http://home.bt.com/news/world-news/john-kerry-to-visit-brussels-and-london-for-talks-on-eu-exit-11364070034067) and plan to prevent economic collapse (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36633165)? Who is in charge (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36633595)? Who has anyone's confidence (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-36570120)? Who is actually leading any of the parliamentary parties, never mind the country?



I'm not so concerned about short term movements in markets. The stock market will make a recovery at some point, purely due to the fact that markets never fall vertically if nothing else. It's the medium term drift downwards we need to wary of.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Richoriginal on June 26, 2016, 03:01:56 pm
hey Donny - so your nephew that could'nt get a job because he wasn't polish? Well, leading Brexit MP saying that the Brexit won't effect immigration numbers, so it looks like your nephew still won't get that job. (https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/news/uk/683445/daniel-hannan-brexit-not-lead-cut-migration-vote-leave/amp?client=safari#)

You do realise you've been totally mugged, right?
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on June 26, 2016, 03:03:18 pm

hey Donny - so your nephew that could'nt get a job because he wasn't polish? Well, leading Brexit MP saying that the Brexit won't effect immigration numbers, so it looks like your nephew still won't get that job. (https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/news/uk/683445/daniel-hannan-brexit-not-lead-cut-migration-vote-leave/amp?client=safari#)

You do realise you've been totally mugged, right?


It will take a while.
The reason I'm talking about unity is because those of us who didn't vote Leave feel stitched up by the establishment. The Leave side have felt that for years but will soon realise they have been duped by the establishment again.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: DaveM on June 26, 2016, 03:11:01 pm
I too, get annoyed when people say we should just get over it and move on. Especially people who backed remain saying it!

Bottom line is - the result of this vote was influenced by flat-out lies during the campaign and many voted for reasons that had nothing to do with the EU. There is no plan. I'll be damned if I should just start grinning and waving a union jack flag like I've lost my mind.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Richoriginal on June 26, 2016, 03:15:11 pm

So in your petulance you are demanding answers from a retired postman. Classic.


but it was the posties fault. (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-disenfranchised-expats-denied-eu-referendum-missing-postal-votes-demand-re-run-hundreds-a7103066.html)
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on June 26, 2016, 03:21:44 pm

I too, get annoyed when people say we should just get over it and move on. Especially people who backed remain saying it!

Bottom line is - the result of this vote was influenced by flat-out lies during the campaign and many voted for reasons that had nothing to do with the EU. There is no plan. I'll be damned if I should just start grinning and waving a union jack flag like I've lost my mind.


That's the point: don't keep calm and carry on. This should be a call to (metaphorical) arms.
The outcome of this has to be as Tricky stated and I myself proposed, constitutional reform: Proportional Representation to ensure the likes of Donny feel that their voice is being heard and also as a means to prevent a descent into a one-party state when Scotland leaves.
I also think that the Eurosceptic wing of the Conservative Party has lost the tiny grip on reality that it previously had. They are complaining that October will not give them enough time to sort out a new leader, especially as parliament goes into summer recess in four weeks. I don't think they really understand what they have unleashed here. October is too long to wait for leadership. Also, recess? Parliament is seriously going to take its normal huge holiday in the middle of the biggest constitutional crisis for centuries?

I also am coming to the conclusion that the mainstream media is more out of touch than I thought. They are talking about the Tory leadership chaos as if it is a normal campaign leading up to a normal election at some time in the future. This will be no normal election when it does happen. Do the Tories think that those who voted Leave in the north are going to back them in a general election? Do they not realise the damage they have done to their core support in the South? That is why these online petitions are important: not because they will change anything, but because it begins to get across some of the level of disgust in the country. The deprived areas got their point across in the referendum; now the Remain voters need to get their point across. We can only do this by working together.
I understand the acrimony and finger pointing, but coming from where I do I have seen firsthand where it leads (not that I'm saying bloodshed will ensue). The only way to make this worse is some form of peaceful civil war amongst ourselves. What we actually need is a peaceful revolution.
We've just witnessed a peaceful coup; a takeover of the country by just under half of the ruling party. We cannot let them get away with it!
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Loafé on June 26, 2016, 05:05:45 pm
The irony is that most of the people telling me to roll my sleeves up and get on with it aren't actually going to have to sort out all this sh!t because they aren't in the position to do it. Because they are retired, on the shop floor or unemployed.

it's like being mugged on a council estate, having your kneecaps smashed, and then being told to stop moaning and issue their dole cheque.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: tricky on June 26, 2016, 05:38:36 pm

The irony is that most of the people telling me to roll my sleeves up and get on with it aren't actually going to have to sort out all this sh!t because they aren't in the position to do it. Because they are retired, on the shop floor or unemployed.

it's like being mugged on a council estate, having your kneecaps smashed, and then being told to stop moaning and issue their dole cheque.


Very shortly we'll have to be all in it together again.  Presumably instead of the protected status the pensioners had during that process last time out, they will bear the full brunt this time to make up for the daily widening deficit that their vote has caused? Given that they've shafted the young working classes for the foreseeable future, and they don't want economic migrants, there will be no f*cker left to pay their pensions and health care?

Selfish old c*nts.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: The GasMan on June 26, 2016, 06:11:37 pm
I didn't vote leave, nor do I have any particular axe to grind either way given that I haven't lived in the UK for the last 30 years. Indeed, I agree that a "remain" vote would almost certainly have been the better option, even dealing with such intransigent EURO b@stards as the loathsome and high-handed Mr. Juncker; but I digress.
My point is, I feel as if the Talkback site lately seems to have given itself over, almost exclusively, as a platform for some over over-zealous, doom-mongering about the consequences of Brexit. Is there absolutely no light at the end of the tunnel?
There are loads of countries in the world that are not members of the EU, or any other formal trading block, in a worse financial situation than us, that manage to do quite well in world terms. We will not become a poor country overnight & I see no reason (apart from the dire lack of decent politicians in the "leave" block) that we can't do as well as these countries Not to mention the non-EU countries Norway, Switzerland, etc.. Indeed, there may be good Trading opportunities with these EFTA member states, that could become stronger if other countries also decide to leave the EU.
There should also be strong support from (don't laugh) for Britain from our Commonwealth cousins, not to mention the crazy Mr. Trump.
Even Ms. Merkel is saying she fully expects Britian to continue to be an important business partner. Of course agreements will be tougher but, whilst I do expect some spitefulness initially in these negotiations, the bottom line is we do have good business on offer which the EU will want to conduct.
We also need to remember that the EU started with fine principles of free-trade and access to each others' markets. Lovely! What it deteriated into was an overbearing, micro-managing organisation that over interfered in the British way of life with expensive and often unnecesary legislation on all sorts of guff. The initial EU concept gone mad.
I just want to put forward some positivity about the current political situation. It is not 100% doom & gloom.
OK, now shoot me down.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on June 26, 2016, 06:45:24 pm


My point is, I feel as if the Talkback site lately seems to have given itself over, almost exclusively, as a platform for some over over-zealous, doom-mongering about the consequences of Brexit. Is there absolutely no light at the end of the tunnel?



It's not the action of leaving the EU that is the issue (although that is particularly galling for many people); it is the fact that those who led us down this path seemingly have no clue as to what to do next. Caught up in the hubris of campaigning many lies were told, all of which turned out to be false almost within an hour of the Leave vote being confirmed.
With no leadership and both main parties tearing themselves apart we have no idea what comes next, and neither do businesses or the markets. Those away from the South and London may not give a damn about the financial centre and see the stock market as an insane casino, but they will be affected by changes in the value of the pound and the cost of UK government debt.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: DaveM on June 26, 2016, 06:47:44 pm

There are loads of countries in the world that are not members of the EU, or any other formal trading block, in a worse financial situation than us, that manage to do quite well in world terms. We will not become a poor country overnight & I see no reason (apart from the dire lack of decent politicians in the "leave" block) that we can't do as well as these countries


It's true. There is nothing that says you have to be a member of the EU to be successful and no-one is saying that long term things will even themselves out. But geographically speaking, we are practically joined to mainland europe and 50% of our trade takes place with countries inside this bloc. Given that we are currently members, and doing well, then throwing up walls around us will be derimental to our trade in the short-to-medium term. This will increase costs for businesses in the UK, many of whom will not survive. The additional costs and administration will also tempt firms with EU-heavy trade to relocate their base inside the EU.

This is just talking 'trade' too, but we receive subsidies and grants for a wide range of things from scientific research to re-generation of deprived areas. All of which will be impacted - research massively as it will curtail our involvement in cross-european research consortia, but as for the other things - they are likely to be way down on the governments priorities as they pay the legal bills for exit along with financial injections to both help the currency stablise and incentivise business to keep trading in the UK.

Then there is the economic uncertainty which will impact the value of the pound, interest rates and inflation. Given we were in an austerity situation before, this will likely get worse in the medium term with further cuts to NHS funding, pensions etc. Oh, and of course value of savings and house prices will also be impacted.

And what for? What grand plan drove us to this decision which will have all those impacts for years to come?

Quote

Not to mention the non-EU countries Norway, Switzerland, etc.. Indeed, there may be good Trading opportunities with these EFTA member states, that could become stronger if other countries also decide to leave the EU.


A break up of the EU is one of the things that scares me, given how far right some of the EU countries are already edging. But put that to one side, the countries you mention benefit from agreements with the EU which mean they have to pay money to the EU without being a voting member state. Given the 'leave' vote was based around us not paying the EU, I can't see how we can go that route.

Quote

There should also be strong support from (don't laugh) for Britain from our Commonwealth cousins, not to mention the crazy Mr. Trump.


Talk of the commonwealth is irrelevant in my view, and impractical to put all our eggs in based on our current trading profile. Don't rely on the US for anything either - they will be likely spending years trying to fix the mess they are about to vote for too.

Quote

Even Ms. Merkel is saying she fully expects Britian to continue to be an important business partner. Of course agreements will be tougher but, whilst I do expect some spitefulness initially in these negotiations, the bottom line is we do have good business on offer which the EU will want to conduct.


This is true, but from the EC's perspective we cannot be allowed to get a 'free pass' for choosing to leave. The signal that would send to other member states would be hugely detrimental to it. Also, it will be hard to negotiate favourable terms that mean we are getting a better deal than it's members without having to pay our subs. Other countries simply wouldn't go for it.

Again the long-term outlook is rosier than the short to medium term, even if rosier doesn't equate to being better than we would have been staying in, of course.

Quote

We also need to remember that the EU started with fine principles of free-trade and access to each others' markets. Lovely! What it deteriated into was an overbearing, micro-managing organisation that over interfered in the British way of life with expensive and often unnecesary legislation on all sorts of guff. The initial EU concept gone mad.


It wasn't just about trade. It was about closer co-operation and maintaining peace too, originally.

I'm no fan of EU inteference for legislation, and things like a three-state veto on things, but these were ultimately fixable things in my view, which we cannot do from being outside it as we now will be.

I'm also sceptical that most people who voted leave would actually have had particularly strong views on us leaving the EU prior to the referendum. Sure, immigration was a concern in some regions, as it is in many EU states but the net effect of migration was positive to the UK overall and reflected how well we were doing. The plans for controlling immigration post-Brexit are non-existent and the oft-quoted 'points' system may actually see immigration increase, which would be counter to the primary reason many voted for 'leave'.

The reality is that most people were not overly negatively impacted by the EU in their daily lives. But during the course of the campaign were told that all the countries ills, from doctors waiting lists to big companies closing down were ALL due to our EU membership and that getting out of things would magically make everything wonderful. A straight up lie, and the reason so many 'remain' supporters are still furious about all this.

Quote

I just want to put forward some positivity about the current political situation. It is not 100% doom & gloom.


As I say, eventually we will be okay. It's just before then we will have to suffer dramatic consequences of the decision.

We cannot say with 100% sureity that things wouldn't have been bad eventually if we stayed in, but at least we knew what we were dealing with and always retained the option of leaving at a future date - hopefully once a coherent strategy was formulated first.

I don't remember a time before we were in the EU. Being in the EU was an integral part of what I saw as the 'normal' state of affairs. It is genuinely quite scary now as we are looking into the abyss of uncertainty and I really hope that strong leadership - whichever side of the political spectrum that comes from - will help shore things up and get us moving in the right direction. In the meantime, I think we have to strap ourselves in for a particularly bumpy ride, with numerous casualties along the way.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: tricky on June 26, 2016, 06:57:34 pm
....OK, now shoot me down.


No problem.

Take the ten biggest economies by GDP (http://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/022415/worlds-top-10-economies.asp). Almost all, except arguably Italy, are larger countries - in terms of land mass (and thus natural resources). They generally have larger internal markets, by population or financial size. They have mixed economies including a higher percentage of manufacturing or agriculture. They also have either a higher skills base, or lower wage costs. They have a mix of better infrastructure, established wealth creation (manufacturing) sectors, and a lower cost base.

The UK is particularly exposed to it's dependence on the financial services industry. This is highly dependent on reciprocal trading relations with other major economies and specifically things like the EU banking passport.  There is no particular reason these trades couldn't be done elsewhere - it's a highly transferable industry - and no particular reason future trading partners should allow us preferential agreements in line with those that we currently enjoy as a result of membership of the EU. It is not an industry that would benefit from s devaluation of currency - a trade is a trade, but it is an industry that is sensitive to an increased cost base and extra layers of regulation.  Both things likely with a change in legislative status.

To move to a manufacturing base would require raw materials (more expensive, because we pretty much have to import them all), enhanced infrastructure (national government investment required), a higher skills base (which will be a substantial challenge with reduced immigration), and a lower cost base (some good and bad here....we will cost less to employ, we can abandon concepts like the minimum wage, but this is likely to lead to increased dissatisfaction and reduced productivity as costs of living increase and wages reduce).

It's hard to know where we will ultimately settle in the world pecking order, but it will certainly be much lower than where we currently are. Much will depend on how much of that 75+% of financial services that we hold onto.  It's not fanciful to suggest that unless we strike a deal that allows us the current level of access to financial sector parity on trading with the EU we will lose a lot of it.  They will simply unplug their computers in the City, and plug them in to similar offices in Frankfurt....or the already established Zurich (we wont be established in the sense of new regulatory environments - banks don't like those).

The EU is talking about trade agreements, subject to us meeting EU legislation and paying for membership (same costs in  terms of following legislation as well as actually paying, less influence).  It's in their interests, because we are a net importer, and we don't get to annoy them by vetoing their votes. It's a bit less clear where things are on issues like the banking passport. Don't get your hopes up.  Europe very much wants our trades within Europe.

So we definitely lose.  We suffer recession and reduced standards of living, we require large investment on reduced tax take, and we have to build a mixed economy where factors are very much against us.  We lose skills, and gain an aging dependent population in return.

Obviously we will have a GDP....lets assume we don't get drawn into war (actual or trade), that we maintain the borders we will now have to police, and that we don't lose Scotland or (god forbid) London. Lets assume there is no renewal of the Irish conflict, and that ISIS don't see us as a soft target and use us to send a message because our reduced intelligence and policing capacity will definitely reduce our capacity for early warning and collaboration. Let's assume the Russians keep their niggly incursions into our air space, but don't actually fire on us.

We still drop a long way back from where we are, and we all feel it deeply, profoundly, and for years.  Of course ultimately we'll get used to it. It wont be as good as it was, but we'll get used to it.....Hopefully within a generation or two.

Of course it could take a generation to unpick all the legal and constitutional issues.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Mangetout on June 26, 2016, 06:59:44 pm
Owing to the fact that the UK abandoned the Commonwealth on trade years back (to join the EU), the Commonwealth has moved on with trade deals to the rest of the world (including the, IMHO highly-damaging, TPPA). And if the UK is no longer a gateway to Europe, it's really not so appealing as a trade partner.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: jp on June 26, 2016, 07:15:11 pm
As an economist put it, the reason why people like (want to invest in) the UK is because, in the absence of high productivity levels (that's you, Donny, and your nephew) it has stability, and is seen as a known and familiar entity forming a gateway to Europe.

We're about to lose all that, and we don't have high productivity, particular expertise in anything (other than in financial services, which again is about to move to Europe), or natural resources. So what do we have to offer now? What's going to keep all the foreign money in the UK now? I'd love to be told the answer.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: donnyred on June 26, 2016, 07:29:51 pm

He's probably a plastic paddy.


Irish and have an Irish Passport.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Guru on June 26, 2016, 07:31:13 pm

Irish and have an Irish Passport.

Which you are going to need.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: garf on June 26, 2016, 07:31:32 pm

Irish and have an Irish Passport.


Coming over here, taking our jobs etc.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: jp on June 26, 2016, 07:33:59 pm

Irish and have an Irish Passport.


Outstanding. So why aren't you campaigning for Ireland to leave the EU as well? Oh, was it because you saw what happened after the financial crash and realised that Ireland would be even more f*cked if it wasn't in the EU, not least because loads of young Irish had to go elsewhere in Europe to find work? Just like Poles do? Just like the good people of Conisborough (or wherever you live) will need to do when the next recession hits....except they can't now, even if they could be arsed to.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: donnyred on June 26, 2016, 07:34:31 pm
My Mother was from Nottm, I was born on a trip to Mayo. I was brought up from a few weeks old in Nottm. Until Two years ago I had a UK Passport only. I go to Mayo at least five times a year and were it not for my Grandkids and My Wife I would move there permantly.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Russ on June 26, 2016, 07:38:37 pm

My Mother was from Nottm, I was born on a trip to Mayo. I was brought up from a few weeks old in Nottm. Until Two years ago I had a UK Passport only. I go to Mayo at least five times a year and were it not for my Grandkids and My Wife I would move there permantly.


Votes Leave. Can't wait to leave himself.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: donnyred on June 26, 2016, 07:40:19 pm

Outstanding. So why aren't you campaigning for Ireland to leave the EU as well? Oh, was it because you saw what happened after the financial crash and realised that Ireland would be even more f*cked if it wasn't in the EU, not least because loads of young Irish had to go elsewhere in Europe to find work? Just like Poles do? Just like the good people of Conisborough (or wherever you live) will need to do when the next recession hits....except they can't now, even if they could be arsed to.


The Irish came here seeking work as The Brits, took Ireland to pieces and in many parts of Ireland Catholics couldn't get work. Many including my Dad were met with no blacks or Irish allowed, yet the British made it impossible for the native Irish to own and Farm their own lands. In the North all jobs were for Protestant scots not native Irish. This remained until the 80s. The Polish and eastern European are not forbidden to work in their own country.


#Note to Russ I really don't give a toss about the grammar and you did leave.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: garf on June 26, 2016, 07:45:21 pm

The Irish came here seeking work as The Brits, took Ireland to pieces and in many parts of Ireland Catholics couldn't get work. Many including my Dad were met with no blacks or Irish allowed


I would have thought this might have let to a bit of empathy with future immigrants.



The Polish and eastern European are not forbidden to work in their own country.


Apparently not.


Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on June 26, 2016, 07:52:27 pm

Many including my Dad were met with no blacks or Irish allowed, yet the British made it impossible for the native Irish to own and Farm their own lands. In the North all jobs were for Protestant scots not native Irish. This remained until the 80s.


And it's interesting because you are clearly on the Nationalist side of Ireland, yet voted Leave. I'm not getting personal or anything here Donny, but does it not worry you that IRA dissidents were encouraging Republicans to vote Leave so that they could stir up tensions? Does this (http://gu.com/p/4my3c?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Gmail) not worry you at all? I suspect that you had not really considered it because beyond immigration and taking the country back the debate was very thin on what the actual consequences of leaving would be.
Making racists think they can be open about their beliefs (http://gu.com/p/4myj3?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Gmail) being another example. I know you're a reasonable chap and are not racist yourself, but the fact is that the political movement that eventually forced this referendum is full of racists and by voting leave people have unintentionally lent their support to that viewpoint. I could actually have backed a Leave campaign that was not forced upon us by a racist party and that had a clear and stable plan for the aftermath. I was dead against this particular Leave campaign however.
The genie is out of the bottle...
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Guru on June 26, 2016, 07:55:57 pm

The Irish came here seeking work as The Brits, took Ireland to pieces and in many parts of Ireland Catholics couldn't get work. Many including my Dad were met with no blacks or Irish allowed, yet the British made it impossible for the native Irish to own and Farm their own lands. In the North all jobs were for Protestant scots not native Irish. This remained until the 80s. The Polish and eastern European are not forbidden to work in their own country.


#Note to Russ I really don't give a toss about the grammar and you did leave.


Seriously. What is your point? Was your father from ireland? If so,  I simply do not understand your thinking at all.

As an educated man, my dad and many of his friends were also met with significant racism from a country that had been dissected by the Empire. He, like your own father by the sounds of things, overcame hostility, xenophobia and racism and by the time he died, the UK was a more tolerant society celebrating diversity. I am proud of the role he played in that and despair that the xenophobia that this campaign has unearthed takes us* back 40 years.

In the current climate, for those who were voting on an immigration ticket, the Irish and the Poles are the same enemy.



* hope it is ok for me to use "us."
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on June 26, 2016, 08:02:32 pm
By voting to Leave I wasn't supporting racism...
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ClzR3azWYAASWOy.jpg)

I'm assuming his Polish barber hadn't spotted the t-shirt until halfway through the cut.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: donnyred on June 26, 2016, 08:05:01 pm
The immigration issues was only a small part of my reason for voting leave. I really believe it wasn't just the Tories who decimated our Steel, Coal and Shipbuilding industries or made us liberalise our Postal system or sold our utility services. Most of it was due to European rule on competition.

Europe is a gravy train where unelected people get paid huge wages and massive expenses to make decisions that few of them have any idea about. ( I know this as I have family working in Strasburg, yes they are on my Irish side) It is also rotten and corrupt to the core with billions being syphoned off for crackpot projects. Yes here in parts of the UK we get grants but we pay far more in than we get out of it.

I also totally object to the Human Rights bill that favours the perpetrator rather than the victim. How in Gods name can a Foreign Criminal be allowed to stay here after murder and rape to protect his Human f*cking rights. A rapist and Murderer should give up any rights. Why on earth should an innocent victims family be made to see these c*nts passing their houses every day while living on the state at our expense.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: jp on June 26, 2016, 08:05:26 pm

The Polish and eastern European are not forbidden to work in their own country.


Thanks for the history lesson (such as it was) but it's irrelevant to what you and your fellow travellers have just done to this country. I repeat, why would you want to stop Brits from seeking work in the rest of the EU, and do you realise that if young Brits need to do so when the recession comes (which you and your fellow travellers have just created) they won't be able to?

Putting aside the whole issue of migration, do you realise that your vote has very probably just chucked the economy of the UK off a cliff? Has that actually registered? When all the EU migrants have gone there won't be any f*cking jobs in South Yorkshire for local people to fill - do you understand that?
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: jp on June 26, 2016, 08:16:14 pm
Oh Christ - we need some fact checking here.


The immigration issues was only a small part of my reason for voting leave. I really believe it wasn't just the Tories who decimated our Steel, Coal and Shipbuilding industries or made us liberalise our Postal system or sold our utility services. Most of it was due to European rule on competition.


No it wasn't at all. That all happened well before EU competition law became what it is now. There aren't even any pro-Brexit business leaders (or indeed anyone) who suggest that the death of manufacturing industries and the privatisation of state-owned utilities was due to EU/EC laws. The Tories decided to privatise state-owned utilities, for a host of ideological/economic ideas that had nothing to do with the EU. Why are so many utilities and manufacturing capabilities in other EU counties still state owned or controlled? Honestly, that's utter horsesh!t - you've just made that up completely.

Quote

Europe is a gravy train where unelected people get paid huge wages and massive expenses to make decisions that few of them have any idea about. ( I know this as I have family working in Strasburg, yes they are on my Irish side) It is also rotten and corrupt to the core with billions being syphoned off for crackpot projects. Yes here in parts of the UK we get grants but we pay far more in than we get out of it.


We'll soon find out whether we pay more than we get back - I think you will be dissappointed to discover that the costs of doing all the things that the state will have to do on its own now, coupled with the impact on the economy, will not be outweighed by what no longer have to contribute to the EU.

Quote

I also totally object to the Human Rights bill that favours the perpetrator rather than the victim. How in Gods name can a Foreign Criminal be allowed to stay here after murder and rape to protect his Human f*cking rights. A rapist and Murderer should give up any rights. Why on earth should an innocent victims family be made to see these c*nts passing their houses every day while living on the state at our expense.


Leaving the EU will make no difference as to whether or not European Convention on Human Rights law (these are two different things - did you not realise?) applies in this country. It's not because of the EU - it's because we signed up to the European Convention ages ago - indeed the British were responsible for its creation.

At least we know now why you didn't have a f*cking clue what you were voting about.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: garf on June 26, 2016, 08:18:09 pm

Europe is a gravy train where unelected people get paid huge wages and massive expenses to make decisions that few of them have any idea about.


And it's going to be replaced by which Utopian system exactly?
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on June 26, 2016, 08:19:25 pm

The immigration issues was only a small part of my reason for voting leave. I really believe it wasn't just the Tories who decimated our Steel, Coal and Shipbuilding industries or made us liberalise our Postal system or sold our utility services. Most of it was due to European rule on competition.


You're absolutely correct on this point. The Blair government is just as culpable as the preceding 18 year Tory government and the subsequent 6 years of coalition/Tory government. This is why I think people have to wake up to the fact that both sides are now losers and the only real winners are the very wealthy and Farage. At some point even UKIP supporters may wake up to the fact that they have been duped, although this is much less likely as there will always be non-white faces to blame.

Quote

Europe is a gravy train where unelected people get paid huge wages and massive expenses to make decisions that few of them have any idea about. ( I know this as I have family working in Strasburg, yes they are on my Irish side) It is also rotten and corrupt to the core with billions being syphoned off for crackpot projects. Yes here in parts of the UK we get grants but we pay far more in than we get out of it.


There was never any evidence given to support this argument other than the now mythical £350m a week figure. Even if it was true, do you think it likely that a government led by BJ with Gove as Chancellor and IDS in the mix will replace these grants rather than implementing a flat rate of income tax or cutting higher rate taxes? That's even assuming that the £350m per week is not wiped out by the fall in tax receipts should we experience recession.

Quote

I also totally object to the Human Rights bill that favours the perpetrator rather than the victim. How in Gods name can a Foreign Criminal be allowed to stay here after murder and rape to protect his Human f*cking rights. A rapist and Murderer should give up any rights. Why on earth should an innocent victims family be made to see these c*nts passing their houses every day while living on the state at our expense.


I really do not understand this point at all; are you saying that the EU made it impossible for UK Law Enforcement to arrest and prosecute a foreign national who commits a crime in the UK? Is there an example you can provide (genuine question)?
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Guru on June 26, 2016, 08:20:19 pm

Putting aside the whole issue of migration, do you realise that your vote has very probably just chucked the economy of the UK off a cliff? Has that actually registered? When all the EU migrants have gone there won't be any f*cking jobs in South Yorkshire for local people to fill - do you understand that?


Yeah...but the houses will be cheaper. And if people want to go abroad, they can just get a visa. That is apparently the response.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on June 26, 2016, 08:23:08 pm

Oh Christ - we need some fact checking here.

No it wasn't at all. That all happened well before EU competition law became what it is now. There aren't even any pro-Brexit business leaders (or indeed anyone) who suggest that the death of manufacturing industries and the privatisation of state-owned utilities was due to EU/EC laws. The Tories decided to privatise state-owned utilities, for a host of ideological/economic ideas that had nothing to do with the EU. Why are so many utilities and manufacturing capabilities in other EU counties still state owned or controlled? Honestly, that's utter horsesh!t - you've just made that up completely.



Although worded poorly, Donny has something of a point on this one. Thatcher allowed the manufacturing base to whither away in the industrial heartlands and refused to do anything to mitigate the impact.
The Blair government did very little to remedy the situation, preferring instead on focusing on winning Tory seats in the South. He also refused to condone any form of nationalisation in any industry; I still firmly believe that the Railways, water and electricity should be in public hands (As well as the Post Office).
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: garf on June 26, 2016, 08:25:36 pm

we pay far more in than we get out of it.


Read this

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/03/eu-explainer-easily-bored-cost-uk

Specifically

Quote
the gross sum the UK puts into the EU budget, minus the money that flows back to the UK, whether via government bodies or directly to beneficiaries - at £6.7bn.


and

Quote
the Confederation of British Industry - hardly a fluffy bunch of Bruges graduates - suggests the direct net economic benefits of membership to the UK are between £62bn and £78bn every year.


But I'm sure you know better.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Simon. Not Steve or Nazimon on June 26, 2016, 08:27:34 pm

Yeah...but the houses will be cheaper.


Massive recessions with massive increases in unemployment will generally have that effect.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: DaveM on June 26, 2016, 08:28:38 pm

Europe is a gravy train where unelected people get paid huge wages and massive expenses to make decisions that few of them have any idea about.


And yet this decision has been made by people who REALLY don't have a f*ck what it's all about

Quote

It is also rotten and corrupt to the core with billions being syphoned off for crackpot projects. Yes here in parts of the UK we get grants but we pay far more in than we get out of it.


What crackpot projects specifically bother you?

Quote

I also totally object to the Human Rights bill that favours the perpetrator rather than the victim. How in Gods name can a Foreign Criminal be allowed to stay here after murder and rape to protect his Human f*cking rights. A rapist and Murderer should give up any rights. Why on earth should an innocent victims family be made to see these c*nts passing their houses every day while living on the state at our expense.


This isn't directly tied with our EU membership. On the other hand, I am worried about rejection of other protective EU acts, such as workers rights or right to equal pay or working conditions.

But hey - it's all great though, as we will have 'our Britain back' I suppose
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on June 26, 2016, 08:31:50 pm
Gove, the master strategist: "“People in this country have had enough of experts.”

IDS on TV this morning:

Quote

“We do need to get going on the shape of Brexit,” IDS admitted, somewhat late in the day. Three months ago might have been a better time to start. “But we will be getting some experts in to help with our renegotiations.”
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Simon. Not Steve or Nazimon on June 26, 2016, 08:33:46 pm
I wonder what they'll do when the experts tell them the best approach is not to be so f*cking stupid as to leave.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: DaveM on June 26, 2016, 08:37:47 pm
I think politicians (of all flavours) get so used to lack of public scrutiny of the details of what they say, that they can spin and twist and turn at every juncture. Things said days or weeks ago are conveniently forgotten with the latest soundbite being aired. Most people simply don't give a toss, we roll our eyes and get back to scratching our balls.

This is different though. People are looking out for discrepancies, prior mistruths or backtracking, well the 'remain' camp are. And this will make things increasingly difficult for them as they try to pretend things are under control.

And I expect it to continue and continue, and I hope that every time it does the contradictions are pointed out and highlighted broadly.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: jp on June 26, 2016, 08:40:19 pm

Although worded poorly, Donny has something of a point on this one. Thatcher allowed the manufacturing base to whither away in the industrial heartlands and refused to do anything to mitigate the impact.
The Blair government did very little to remedy the situation, preferring instead on focusing on winning Tory seats in the South. He also refused to condone any form of nationalisation in any industry; I still firmly believe that the Railways, water and electricity should be in public hands (As well as the Post Office).


No he doesn't.  He said it was down to the EU, and in particular EU competition law. It wasn't. That is nothing more than a fantasy.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on June 26, 2016, 09:04:55 pm

No he doesn't.  He said it was down to the EU, and in particular EU competition law. It wasn't. That is nothing more than a fantasy.


No, that's the buying into the lie. He is right about the way that large areas of the country have been ignored for too long. Throwaway statements such as "Such and such place is a sh!thole" etc., which we are all guilty of making sitting in our comfortable surroundings.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: jp on June 26, 2016, 09:07:14 pm
M, with respect, I was responding to the utterly fallacious and entirely bonkers assertion that privatisation of state-owned utilities, and the general decline in manufacturing and heavy industry, was due to EU competition law. And that. Is. Nonsense.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Andyp on June 26, 2016, 09:10:17 pm

Massive recessions with massive increases in unemployment will generally have that effect.


The houses might be cheaper but under a Gove/Johnson /IDS government housing benefit will be a major target for cuts. Basically we will become even more like the US with the development of an even larger underclass.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Richoriginal on June 26, 2016, 09:12:05 pm


Europe is a gravy train where unelected people....



Another total lie you've fallen for Donny.

Do you mean the MEP's? You know, the ones we vote for in European elections?

Or do you mean the EU commissioners who are proposed by national governments (you know, the government that we elected here in the UK) and selected by the president of the European Commission.

Or do you mean the president of the European Commission, who is nominated by the elected leaders, which means by our government (the one, again, that is elected by us in the UK), and then voted for by the MEP's (the MEP's representing the UK, are the ones that you voted for in the European elections.)

Any new legislation proposed by the Commission still has to be agreed by the member states and passed by the European Parliament, which is directly elected by EU voters. (In the European Elections, which you had the chance to vote in).

So again Donny, you do know that you've been mugged here don't you?
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on June 26, 2016, 09:12:17 pm

M, with respect, I was responding to the utterly fallacious and entirely bonkers assertion that privatisation of state-owned utilities, and the general decline in manufacturing and heavy industry, was due to EU competition law. And that. Is. Nonsense.


I know the subtext of the words "with respect". ;). (you've provoked me into using an emoticon). Of course that is nonsense, but in my own spirit of reconciliation I want to point out that there were genuine concerns that were, clearly, manipulated for devious political ends. I don't think that branding someone as stupid (which I know you are not doing, but I have seen and heard many examples outside of this site) for buying into these lies will help us in the quest for resolving this, entirely unnecessary, problem we now face.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on June 26, 2016, 09:14:05 pm
BTW JP, you never answered my question about Scottish independence; I am interested to know if all this has changed your opinion on the subject?
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: podnli on June 26, 2016, 09:14:12 pm
Jerry Hayes (former Tory MP) has just tweeted that "IDS has a small electoral problem [in] that he is a bit of a c*nt".


https://twitter.com/jerryhayes1/status/747158020484927489 (https://twitter.com/jerryhayes1/status/747158020484927489)
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on June 26, 2016, 09:17:37 pm

Jerry Hayes (former Tory MP) has just tweeted that "IDS has a small electoral problem [in] that he is a bit of a c*nt".


https://twitter.com/jerryhayes1/status/747158020484927489 (https://twitter.com/jerryhayes1/status/747158020484927489)


What an arsehole. Everyone knows that IDS is an utter c*nt. Shesh!
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on June 26, 2016, 09:21:21 pm
Currency markets open shortly. Who wants to take a stab at the Pound/Dollar exchange rate when it opens?
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Simon. Not Steve or Nazimon on June 26, 2016, 09:24:08 pm
36% turnout among 18-24 year olds apparently. But still, they are tweeting the sh!t out of that petition.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Guru on June 26, 2016, 09:24:15 pm

Massive recessions with massive increases in unemployment will generally have that effect.


I was taking the piss. Do you need emojis?
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: jp on June 26, 2016, 10:16:01 pm

I know the subtext of the words "with respect".


No subtext. You're one of the people on here I particularly respect and I don't like having to disagree with you.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on June 26, 2016, 10:20:17 pm

Currency markets open shortly. Who wants to take a stab at the Pound/Dollar exchange rate when it opens?


Could have been worse: down 1.7% against the Dollar on open and 1% against the Euro.
So £1 will now buy you $1.3434 and Eur 1.2226. I guess the markets aren't impressed with what they have seen over the weekend...
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on June 26, 2016, 10:20:53 pm

No subtext. You're one of the people on here I particularly respect and I don't like having to disagree with you.


I was taking the piss. Do you need emojis? ;)
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: jp on June 26, 2016, 10:29:23 pm

BTW JP, you never answered my question about Scottish independence; I am interested to know if all this has changed your opinion on the subject?


My view of these matters is always down to pragmatism, not some stupid sentimental idea of nationalism  (we've seen again where that gets you). Scotland would have been worse off leaving the UK and trying to get into the EU. The UK is going to be worse off outside the EU. Scotland will probably be better off staying in/reentering the EU than staying in a f*cked and dying UK. So I wouldn't blame them if they went that way. I hope Scotland sticks around for a while to put the brakes on the UK leaving the EU but to be honest, if you were Scottish, why would you want to stick with this utter pile of sh!t? I am embarrassed to be English just now. Donny and Rich B and millions like them have just shot off their feet and hands, although they don't seem to realise it.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: jp on June 26, 2016, 10:31:39 pm

Could have been worse: down 1.7% against the Dollar on open and 1% against the Euro.
So £1 will now buy you $1.3434 and Eur 1.2226. I guess the markets aren't impressed with what they have seen over the weekend...


The sh!t hasn't even started hitting the fan yet. This week is going to be wall-to-wall banks and other firms starting to move their operations out of the UK. Guess what Wales and Sc*nthorpe? No one is going to buy your steelworks now.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on June 26, 2016, 10:36:09 pm

The sh!t hasn't even started hitting the fan yet. This week is going to be wall-to-wall banks and other firms starting to move their operations out of the UK.


It's actually a pretty big fall considering trading volumes are always very light on Sunday evenings (only the Far East is currently trading); it rivals movements seen during the worst of the Greek crisis.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: jp on June 26, 2016, 10:56:12 pm
Read and weep at the sheer ..... I don't know what what word to use..... of Boris's first public utterance, published in the non-elitist Daily Telegraph tomorrow. 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/26/i-cannot-stress-too-much-that-britain-is-part-of-europe--and-alw/


So many times he rode past me on his bike as I walked to work, years ago. Should I have pushed him under that bin lorry?
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on June 26, 2016, 11:01:59 pm
More lies and misinformation:

"The stock market is way above its level of last autumn; the pound remains higher than it was in 2013 and 2014. "

But the stock market is way lower than it was two weeks ago.
The Pound is hovering just above a 31 year low against the Dollar.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Guru on June 26, 2016, 11:15:26 pm

I was taking the piss. Do you need emojis? ;)


hey.....
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: DaveM on June 27, 2016, 01:14:57 am
So, according to Boris the Remainers are 'confused'.

He cannot detect any appetite for a Scottish Independence referendum

This paragraph did 'confuse' me though...

Quote

British people will still be able to go and work in the EU; to live; to travel; to study; to buy homes and to settle down. As the German equivalent of the CBI – the BDI – has very sensibly reminded us, there will continue to be free trade, and access to the single market.


Really - post Brexit, we still have free trade, full unfettered access to the single market and free movement of people? Really??

He says the ONLY change from Brexit is that we won't be beholden to EU legislation. Riiiiggght

Refers to 'control' of immigration rather than reduction, and says the £350m 'could' be used for the NHS - clearly, pushing the wriggle-room on prior statements

What a steaming pile of drivel. Seriously. People will probably buy all this of course, just as they did during the leave campaign. But lets call it for what it is. f*cking hell....can't really believe he said all that. Tosser.



Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Guru on June 27, 2016, 07:25:40 am
BJ thinks he can say anything, even if it totally contradicts what he said before, and that  people will listen. And the problem is, far too many people are taken in by it. I think Matthew Parris described him as a Pied Piper which seems appropriate. But he's not the first and not the last to be "charismatic." Ultimately democracy is not an intellectual process.

The issue for BJ is that now he might just have to make some hard decisions and be stuck with the consequences. I am happy for him to be PM to negotiate the exit, or climb back down. Either way, let the public get it out of their system rather than him remain as some mercurial figure carping from the side.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Simon. Not Steve or Nazimon on June 27, 2016, 07:46:54 am

Really - post Brexit, we still have free trade, full unfettered access to the single market and free movement of people? Really??

He says the ONLY change from Brexit is that we won't be beholden to EU legislation. Riiiiggght

Refers to 'control' of immigration rather than reduction, and says the £350m 'could' be used for the NHS - clearly, pushing the wriggle-room on prior statements

What a steaming pile of drivel. Seriously. People will probably buy all this of course, just as they did during the leave campaign. But lets call it for what it is. f*cking hell....can't really believe he said all that. Tosser.






Better than that - we are going to be in the single market without paying for it and we are going to get visa-free access to the EU while insisting on Europeans requiring visas to come here (to work at least).

If he gets all that, I'll happily say I was wrong. But it seems like wishful thinking to me - that would be the most one-sided deal ever negotiated.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Richoriginal on June 27, 2016, 07:48:18 am


What a steaming pile of drivel. Seriously. People will probably buy all this of course, just as they did during the leave campaign. But lets call it for what it is. f*cking hell....can't really believe he said all that. Tosser.



Wonder how things are in the alternative world where the tories didn't get a majority or even win last years general election, then none of this f*cking self inflicted Conservative mess would have happened....
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Simon. Not Steve or Nazimon on June 27, 2016, 07:51:52 am


The Pound is hovering just above a 31 year low against the Dollar.


Presumably he means against the euro. Do they still do the 'basket of currencies' thing or did that end when the Euro came in.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: steve on June 27, 2016, 08:00:17 am
Heseltine seems to be saying, if I understand him right, let the Brexit leaders negotiate a deal and then bring parliament together to expose how inadequate it is and refuse to pass it. Not going through with it seems the only sensible approach but I'm not sure that is going to be taken well by either much of the EU or the rabid loons currently shouting go home at anyone foreign looking. Germany at least are keen to keep us in though so you never know. I'm surprised the result is being so widely accepted by politicians at the moment but wonder whether that is a case of run with it and show we are listening until we can prove what a nutjob idea it is.

Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Jeff on June 27, 2016, 08:19:55 am
I don't think I can bring myself to be as annoyed as some people on here, I just think it's an unnecessary regressive step and I find it a bit sad more than anything else. I doubt very much this it is going to be a positive economic step forwards but at the same time there seems to be some real glee taken (including on here) in pointing out just how sh!t things could become. Isn't this the sort of smart-arsed I-know-best just-vote-in-because -it's-right-and-I-say-so attitude that got the non-racists back up with this issue? They have after all been sold a dream of returning influence to their vote which it appears RichB for one has bought into.

With the racist vote, be it anti-Muslim or anti-Eastern European it seems that what has for a long time been ignored as a lunatic minority but have been quietly gaining traction and fueled by the bizarre situation we have where papers are allowed to take extreme editorial positions that run unchecked as the rest of the media has to stay impartial. How The Daily Express gets such an easy ride compared to The Daily Mail in this regard I'm at a loss, the Mail snipes and gloats, the Express doesn't seem to feel the need to hide behind wordplay. And this growing tide seems to have been ignored. When this bile is coupled with scenes of migrant boats attempting to cross the med on the evening news there's no balance. "Don't be racist" is about the sum of the counter argument and everyone has a black friend they met at least once, somewhere, to get them off the hook against that accusation. 

So we drift on, the prosperous left pomping of about how everything is the Tory's fault, ever, and the world is going to end and most people who don't get it are just another thick racist. There's no engagement on either side, the Conservatives just as guilty with the paternal marketing of austerity against a back drop of off-shore accounts and dead pig f*cking. It's no surprise people then take the first opportunity to stick two fingers up at the establishment on both sides of the house in the sad nose/face scenario we had on Thursday. And then the winners out of all this are the real thick racists who have wanted this all along for their own ends. Of course it should never have come to this and their should never have been a vote there was no real mandate for. It was a stupid gamble that was not only lost but has adversely affected life for the past year. But be it Europe or some other issue it the tide for a big f*ck you has been coming, the rise of Jeremy Corbyn was surely a shot across the bow. Maybe people want more polarised politics and the consensus I've know most of my life is dead. Social media would suggest that is what people want although if you are arm c*nts with a megaphone then I suppose you will not be able to hear anything above the c*nts.

Ultimately to me maybe it's because I do not like change but I thought things were pretty good at the moment. We're 16 and half years into a century without a European war which in the age of seafaring is a result, I can eat and drink what I want when I want and have access to an excellent standard of medical care when required. What's not to like? The economy seemed to be creeping forwards, not as fast as every smart arse thinks it could but you'd surely be straining at your economic prowess and political prejudice to suggest it's currently a complete disaster. So why vote for a seismic shift into the unknown?

Ingo, a bit sad living in sad times.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Simon. Not Steve or Nazimon on June 27, 2016, 08:25:50 am

Heseltine seems to be saying, if I understand him right, let the Brexit leaders negotiate a deal and then bring parliament together to expose how inadequate it is and refuse to pass it. Not going through with it seems the only sensible approach but I'm not sure that is going to be taken well by either much of the EU or the rabid loons currently shouting go home at anyone foreign looking. Germany at least are keen to keep us in though so you never know. I'm surprised the result is being so widely accepted by politicians at the moment but wonder whether that is a case of run with it and show we are listening until we can prove what a nutjob idea it is.




The problem with any scenario that involves not leaving is that it probably means UKIP doing very well in the next general election. Although that may be inevitable with the current state of the labour party.

It also assumes that they can negotiate a deal and then trigger article 50 (or that we can convince them to allow us to cancel it). The Eu can refuse to start the negotiations until we've submitted it if they want us out.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Lessred on June 27, 2016, 08:54:32 am
I think Ingo has pretty much summed up my perspective on this, just really sad.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on June 27, 2016, 08:57:47 am

I don't think I can bring myself to be as annoyed as some people on here, I just think it's an unnecessary regressive step and I find it a bit sad more than anything else. I doubt very much this it is going to be a positive economic step forwards but at the same time there seems to be some real glee taken (including on here) in pointing out just how sh!t things could become. Isn't this the sort of smart-arsed I-know-best just-vote-in-because -it's-right-and-I-say-so attitude that got the non-racists back up with this issue? They have after all been sold a dream of returning influence to their vote which it appears RichB for one has bought into.

With the racist vote, be it anti-Muslim or anti-Eastern European it seems that what has for a long time been ignored as a lunatic minority but have been quietly gaining traction and fueled by the bizarre situation we have where papers are allowed to take extreme editorial positions that run unchecked as the rest of the media has to stay impartial. How The Daily Express gets such an easy ride compared to The Daily Mail in this regard I'm at a loss, the Mail snipes and gloats, the Express doesn't seem to feel the need to hide behind wordplay. And this growing tide seems to have been ignored. When this bile is coupled with scenes of migrant boats attempting to cross the med on the evening news there's no balance. "Don't be racist" is about the sum of the counter argument and everyone has a black friend they met at least once, somewhere, to get them off the hook against that accusation. 

So we drift on, the prosperous left pomping of about how everything is the Tory's fault, ever, and the world is going to end and most people who don't get it are just another thick racist. There's no engagement on either side, the Conservatives just as guilty with the paternal marketing of austerity against a back drop of off-shore accounts and dead pig f*cking. It's no surprise people then take the first opportunity to stick two fingers up at the establishment on both sides of the house in the sad nose/face scenario we had on Thursday. And then the winners out of all this are the real thick racists who have wanted this all along for their own ends. Of course it should never have come to this and their should never have been a vote there was no real mandate for. It was a stupid gamble that was not only lost but has adversely affected life for the past year. But be it Europe or some other issue it the tide for a big f*ck you has been coming, the rise of Jeremy Corbyn was surely a shot across the bow. Maybe people want more polarised politics and the consensus I've know most of my life is dead. Social media would suggest that is what people want although if you are arm c*nts with a megaphone then I suppose you will not be able to hear anything above the c*nts.

Ultimately to me maybe it's because I do not like change but I thought things were pretty good at the moment. We're 16 and half years into a century without a European war which in the age of seafaring is a result, I can eat and drink what I want when I want and have access to an excellent standard of medical care when required. What's not to like? The economy seemed to be creeping forwards, not as fast as every smart arse thinks it could but you'd surely be straining at your economic prowess and political prejudice to suggest it's currently a complete disaster. So why vote for a seismic shift into the unknown?

Ingo, a bit sad living in sad times.


Some very good points.
The point about the media is a good one; those of us who do not have racist or anti-immigrant views are guilty of failing to challenge such polemic for far too long. Having said that, they would not have been able to push a racist agenda had there not been real issues to start with. "Fools rush in where angels fear to tread"; Now, I'm not claiming myself as an angel (even for me that's a rhetorical step too far), but for too long those who you have rightly identified as the prosperous left have been afraid to tread in the deprived areas. In the case of the Labour Party, it has been because they are obsessed with capturing the so-called Middle England vote in order to win elections. In the case of the Tories, which is where I do disagree with you, it is because they have no incentive to tread in those areas.
Voting reform is needed to ensure that the views of those outside of Middle England and the Prosperous left are heard.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on June 27, 2016, 10:54:01 am
Why do I feel myself being transported back to 1992 when I look at this morning's headlines surrounding Corbyn?

It's all over! Just one last push; look, all these people are telling me it's fine..
"'My name is Corbyn, king of kings:
Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!'
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare
The lone and level sands stretch far away.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: steve on June 27, 2016, 10:55:17 am
In last night's pub discussion I was talking to someone who works in Mansfield. He said every single person he works with voted out. He also had an 11 year old girl from Warsop tell him that they had been "invaded by Poles". These areas, that also include Bolsover, Boston, Hartlepool, are at the point where they simply want change, any change, because they have had decades of being ignored. Leaving the EU is probably only going to make things worse as England's slice of the pie will shrink but they are at the point where jumping into the unknown feels better than sticking with the status quo. They are not for the most part going to try living in France or the Netherlands, they don't have second homes to visit in Spain and Portugal and their kids aren't going to take advantage of free travel to live and work across 27 European countries so why not give something else a go. Ever since the 80's when their communities were destroyed no one has done anything meaningful to rebuild them so they've stuck two fingers up at them. It's one of the reasons why Forest fans still face the scab chants when we venture north.

Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: DaveM on June 27, 2016, 10:55:53 am

The problem with any scenario that involves not leaving is that it probably means UKIP doing very well in the next general election. Although that may be inevitable with the current state of the labour party.


I think if we continue with Brexit, we will see a UKIP vote increase no matter what...they would have credibility in many peoples eyes based on the referendum result and would likely talk about needing to be a strong voice in the exit negotiations.

The only way I can see this not happening is if...
1) The pain we start suffering due to the instability becomes very real to ordinary voters
2) All 'Brexit' plans show that it is impossible to 'reduce' immigration as a result
....happen before Article 50 is triggered
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on June 27, 2016, 10:56:51 am

Presumably he means against the euro. Do they still do the 'basket of currencies' thing or did that end when the Euro came in.


Yes, he's picking the fact that supports his message. Of course, I would liken our recent actions as a suicidal man having thrown himself into the pit of oblivion grasping onto those whom he blames for his actions. So toeth El Euro....

In English terms, we are dragging the Euro down with us. Watch the Eur/USD exchange rate and the GBP/USD rate to see where the real action is.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on June 27, 2016, 10:59:10 am
... and see that the Pound is currently testing the 31 year lows it set on Friday. If the Pound goes below $1.30 we truly enter unchartered territory. I expect the major central bankers will be ready to coordinate some market operations any time within the hour.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on June 27, 2016, 11:01:10 am
Leaving in the prosperous left bubble that I do, I was discussing the impacts with a derivatives trader friend as we walked our dogs through our country estates last night.
Every bit of news will send the market into a spin. Rumour will become news and news becomes fact. What is needed is level-headed guidance...
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Simon. Not Steve or Nazimon on June 27, 2016, 11:03:13 am

What is needed is level-headed guidance...


It's on its way

(http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/660/cpsprodpb/1832F/production/_88391199_bojoonazipwire.jpg)
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: DaveM on June 27, 2016, 11:05:19 am

These areas, that also include Bolsover, Boston, Hartlepool, are at the point where they simply want change, any change, because they have had decades of being ignored.


Ignoring xenophobes and racists? Hmmmm

Boston has an unemployment level lower than the national average. Yes, immigration is high in that town with many seeking out work on farms but as I say - this isn't at the detriment of the local economy.

So what they Bostoners are complaining about there is that they see a lot of foreigners around town, here a lot of funny languages being spoken and want rid of them. Simple as that.

It may be different in the other towns you mentioned, but really it's sort of beside the point. It would be understandable that some towns/regions may vote to leave due to the high levels of immigration but there are some areas which are inexplicably voting to leave - such as Wales or Cornwall who benefit so much from EU money and don't face the same issues as elsewhere.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on June 27, 2016, 11:13:45 am
Why would anybody sell their Dollars to buy Pounds right now? In the simple hope that King Canute is being hoisted along the shingle as we speak; behold, the central bankers on their trusty steeds...
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Richoriginal on June 27, 2016, 11:16:59 am
Back to the whole article 50 thing. This is a really informative post.

https://m.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1200279093330132&id=137432829614769
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: tricky on June 27, 2016, 11:21:50 am
Leaving the EU is a process, not a switch (http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/36634702/article-50-the-simplest-explanation-youll-find).  Probably a ten year process.  Assuming everything conclucudes all tickety boo that's ten years of uncertainty and likely reduction in the economy prior to the economic boom of "getting our country back".  Of course we'll still have nasty foreigners, if we have trade agreements.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: JRs Cigarette on June 27, 2016, 11:24:31 am


So what they Bostoners are complaining about there is that they see a lot of foreigners around town, here a lot of funny languages being spoken and want rid of them. Simple as that.



It's not that actually.  That may be part of it, but my parents live in Spalding which is similalry affected and voted out.  The local services are under lots of strain - temporary classrooms at schools, very hard to get a doctor's appointment, low level disturbances from drunken antisoscial behaviour that the police can't cope with.

These are real things affecting those people.  Leaving Europe is not the answer but to say it's as simple as people not liking foreign voices shows how out of touch you (and the Government) are.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Richoriginal on June 27, 2016, 11:29:12 am
Of course as the pound falls against the euro, anyone paid in Euros is earning more. Anyone like, oh, I don't know.... MEP Nigel Farage for example....
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Rich B on June 27, 2016, 11:29:53 am

Ignoring xenophobes and racists? Hmmmm


Wow, seriously generalizing going on here
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on June 27, 2016, 11:30:06 am

Leaving the EU is a process, not a switch (http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/36634702/article-50-the-simplest-explanation-youll-find).  Probably a ten year process.  Assuming everything conclucudes all tickety boo that's ten years of uncertainty and likely reduction in the economy prior to the economic boom of "getting our country back".  Of course we'll still have nasty foreigners, if we have trade agreements.


We are witnessing the final convulsions of a nation coming to terms with the loss of its empire. It has taken many years along a weary road, but finally we behold the destination, the glittering prize, the holy grail which we have sought these long and lonely years. No. Wait. That's just Nigel sending a text message....

Other, probably higher quality, flights of invective fancy are available. Past performance is no guide to future delusions. Subject to terms and conditions.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: DaveM on June 27, 2016, 11:35:02 am

It's not that actually.  That may be part of it, but my parents live in Spalding which is similalry affected and voted out.  The local services are under lots of strain - temporary classrooms at schools, very hard to get a doctor's appointment, low level disturbances from drunken antisoscial behaviour that the police can't cope with.

These are real things affecting those people.  Leaving Europe is not the answer but to say it's as simple as people not liking foreign voices shows how out of touch you (and the Government) are.


Fair enough, but those are issues that need to be addressed through the relevant local and national governments, not through quitting the EU because they opened the door. A vote for 'leave' doesn't fix those problems - it will likely make them worse. I'm sure thats not what they were 'sold' by the leave campaign.

And as I say, it's not about some of these areas with obvious problems as much as it is around places without these issues also inexplicably voting to leave.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on June 27, 2016, 11:40:57 am
Seems like our economic masters are spending some of our beloved pounds on stopping those nasty foreigners from attacking our currency. Go on; we can afford some of the £350m a week to go elsewhere; if not, we can just create it at the click of a button and toss it out there.

"You are about to create £25,000,000,000. Are you sure you want to do this?" Ok, Cancel
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on June 27, 2016, 11:44:48 am
And at the click of a switch did he put there,
A fool’s fortune in glittering foil,
The prize to be taken, gathered, behold!
Hang on, what does “system unresponsive mean”?
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on June 27, 2016, 11:48:40 am
Should anybody be interested in what central banks fighting the markets looks like (and I realise I'm possibly the only person in the universe who finds this interesting), here it is:

(https://s31.postimg.org/ofpba2awb/Pound27062016.png)

Not quite blood in the trenches and all that, but just as damaging.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: steve on June 27, 2016, 11:54:37 am

Fair enough, but those are issues that need to be addressed through the relevant local and national governments, not through quitting the EU because they opened the door. A vote for 'leave' doesn't fix those problems - it will likely make them worse. I'm sure thats not what they were 'sold' by the leave campaign.

And as I say, it's not about some of these areas with obvious problems as much as it is around places without these issues also inexplicably voting to leave.


Yes, but these people feel like no one has done anything about it over decades. No national party has offered to invest in them so they've plumped instead for the people who have promised to at least make what is there available to them rather than foreigners.

Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on June 27, 2016, 11:57:39 am
Still, there are some winners in all this: Sports Direct.

Quote

The group issued a statement on Friday stating that the currency’s weakness was “likely to impact purchases for which the company is currently not hedged for the FY17 period and beyond”. In plain English, that means it buys much of its stock from Asia and that is now going to cost it a lot more.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Loafé on June 27, 2016, 12:08:47 pm

It's not that actually.  That may be part of it, but my parents live in Spalding which is similalry affected and voted out.  The local services are under lots of strain - temporary classrooms at schools, very hard to get a doctor's appointment, low level disturbances from drunken antisoscial behaviour that the police can't cope with.



Those are happening everywhere though aren't they? I live in south Birmingham and all the local schools are full and the gp appointment time is poor. It is because of a birth boom five years back, the ageing population and austerity measures isn't it? (not many immigrants in Bournville). And there has always been anti-social behaviour.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on June 27, 2016, 12:14:50 pm

Those are happening everywhere though aren't they? I live in south Birmingham and all the local schools are full and the gp appointment time is poor. It is because of a birth boom five years back, the ageing population and austerity measures isn't it? (not many immigrants in Bournville). And there has always been anti-social behaviour.


Indeed. My formative years at primary school were spent in a succession of temporary classrooms with leaking roofs and paraffin heaters. That was Thatcher's fault. The fact that it is still happening is my fault because I didn't shout loudly enough that it shouldn't be this way.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on June 27, 2016, 12:20:08 pm
There goes another part of that £350m per week. Who'd have thought that £350m had to stretch so far? Royal Bank of Scotland:
Quote

At their current level of 170p, the shares are back at levels they last traded at during February 2009, when the banking crisis was in full swing. The break even price for the taxpayer is 502p, and the only stake sold by the government in August 2015 was at 330p.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on June 27, 2016, 12:26:14 pm
Phew! Nearly lost it there lads:

(https://s32.postimg.org/pulgcflk5/Nearly_Lost_It_There.png)

Let's pull back a bit and survey the battlefield:

(https://s31.postimg.org/4ggiarva3/Widenhorizons.png)

Dear god....
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: tricky on June 27, 2016, 12:37:22 pm
Austerity has led to reduced investment in services. Reduced investment leads to cuts, and increased pressure on them. Uncertainty and a massive drop in the value of the economy, will lead to a significant renewed round of cuts. This will place more strain on services which will get worse not better.

To counter this trend it would be much more effective to have a social democratic outlook towards government, with a commitment to investment in infrastructure and services, rather than a right wing political agenda that cuts tax, labour costs, and business regulation. This emphasis has been in place since the late seventies, baring brief ill focused moments of investment, and has reached it's jumping the shark point with communities without access to the financial boom in service industries.

Rather than to leave the EU (which makes absolutely no f*cking sense whatsoever in this context, and in fact makes things worse as it allows provision to abandon concepts of employment legislation that protect the individual worker - and have no illusions, that WILL happen, to reduce costs of business and make us competitive by dropping labour costs if we leave the EU), it would make more sense to swing towards a government agenda with a focus on social inclusion and investment in services.

.....but all the main political parties are in disarray, either having been scapegoated while in coalition, having droped the ball by electing a principled, unelectable, numpty who appeals only to core voters, or having split themselves with internal infighting over europe and using it as an issue to scramble up the greasy pole.

This referendum occurred, in large part, because there was a disengagement from the political process, and an absence of meaningful leadership....and that environment means that parliament is currently ill equipped to deal with the massive challenges it faces.

Clusterf*ck is genuinely too mild a description of where we find ourselves.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: JRs Cigarette on June 27, 2016, 12:45:30 pm

Those are happening everywhere though aren't they? I live in south Birmingham and all the local schools are full and the gp appointment time is poor. It is because of a birth boom five years back, the ageing population and austerity measures isn't it? (not many immigrants in Bournville). And there has always been anti-social behaviour.


The areas around Boston and Spalding I think it is driven by European immigrants.  The broader issues you refer to are I guess why other areas without this overlay have also voted out.

As others have said, its about people reaching the end of their tether and voting for something that might make Government sit up and take notice.

I think it's tough to blame people for voting that way, even though it will likely make things worse.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Jeff on June 27, 2016, 01:02:09 pm

Austerity has led to reduced investment in services. Reduced investment leads to cuts, and increased pressure on them. Uncertainty and a massive drop in the value of the economy, will lead to a significant renewed round of cuts. This will place more strain on services which will get worse not better.

To counter this trend it would be much more effective to have a social democratic outlook towards government, with a commitment to investment in infrastructure and services, rather than a right wing political agenda that cuts tax, labour costs, and business regulation. This emphasis has been in place since the late seventies, baring brief ill focused moments of investment, and has reached it's jumping the shark point with communities without access to the financial boom in service industries.

Rather than to leave the EU (which makes absolutely no f*cking sense whatsoever in this context, and in fact makes things worse as it allows provision to abandon concepts of employment legislation that protect the individual worker - and have no illusions, that WILL happen, to reduce costs of business and make us competitive by dropping labour costs if we leave the EU), it would make more sense to swing towards a government agenda with a focus on social inclusion and investment in services.

.....but all the main political parties are in disarray, either having been scapegoated while in coalition, having droped the ball by electing a principled, unelectable, numpty who appeals only to core voters, or having split themselves with internal infighting over europe and using it as an issue to scramble up the greasy pole.

This referendum occurred, in large part, because there was a disengagement from the political process, and an absence of meaningful leadership....and that environment means that parliament is currently ill equipped to deal with the massive challenges it faces.

Clusterf*ck is genuinely too mild a description of where we find ourselves.


Does this mean you are not coming to the pub tonight?
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Andyp on June 27, 2016, 01:03:25 pm

The areas around Boston and Spalding I think it is driven by European immigrants.  The broader issues you refer to are I guess why other areas without this overlay have also voted out.

As others have said, its about people reaching the end of their tether and voting for something that might make Government sit up and take notice.

I think it's tough to blame people for voting that way, even though it will likely make things worse.


If there is a low unemployment rate in South Lincs that must mean there is high employment and more people (immigrants) to do the work. It is not the immigrants fault that the government and local government (both Tory) have not provided adequate sevices to meet this forseen need. This is because they are philosophically against high state spending hence the austerity measures.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on June 27, 2016, 01:03:49 pm
Still, this will help the smaller businesses. That was what this was about right? Allowing the smaller guy to stand up for himself? (https://twitter.com/fastFT/status/747392403535953920/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw)
Smaller businesses will find it easier to compete against the global behemoths, assuming they survive of course.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on June 27, 2016, 01:06:00 pm
Looks like this particular part of the White Cliffs of Dover have fallen Nigel!

(https://s32.postimg.org/iasuhw66d/Abandon_Ship.png)
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: garf on June 27, 2016, 01:18:41 pm

The areas around Boston and Spalding I think it is driven by European immigrants.  The broader issues you refer to are I guess why other areas without this overlay have also voted out.

As others have said, its about people reaching the end of their tether and voting for something that might make Government sit up and take notice.

I think it's tough to blame people for voting that way, even though it will likely make things worse.


Thing is it's right wing infiltration at it's most basic. Identify the disenfranchised; tell them it's the immigrants fault. It doesn't matter to people like Donny's nephew whether it's true or not and understanding the real problems aren't going to help him get a job, or at least not on terms he's going to like but at least he's got a voice now. The fact that the voice only helps the right wing politicians doesn't matter because by the time the damage is done there will be a slew of other targets to blame.

The fact that Cameron walked straight into this, even having had the heads up of a rise in the UKIP vote shows him up for the inadequate politician that he is.




Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: tricky on June 27, 2016, 01:34:10 pm
We have nothing to fear.  This man (https://tompride.wordpress.com/2016/05/28/the-great-eu-debate-boris-johnson-vs-boris-johnson/) can lead us with calm certainty to the promise land. Whatever happens, at least he has it covered!
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Jeff on June 27, 2016, 02:10:29 pm
3rd paragraph down - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36636853
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Richoriginal on June 27, 2016, 03:03:46 pm
The http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/ website seems to have been closed down. It's like they wouldn't want to be held accountable for any of their lies.....
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Seán on June 27, 2016, 03:57:19 pm
I'm not sure I can ever remember the national 'mood' being one of such, well, such forlorn hopelessness.

The whole thing"s just utterly, completely f*cked up. It al feels surreal....the more I think about it all the more completely ludicrous it all gets. Hatstand fruit n nut mental 
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: tricky on June 27, 2016, 04:13:59 pm
I'm all for proceeding on the basis of the referendum result.  When we have negotiated a deal to leave, and have a clearer picture of what that will mean to people, then it must be put to the people of the country again, before article 50 is activated.

Otherwise we risk the absolute and fundamentally ridiculous situation that what may be a unique set of events, has persuaded a narrow majority of predominately disaffected people, to f*ck the whole country over for all time.

I know that some people will ideologically demand it's a one off two fingered response to everyone and everything, but I can't see that any reasonable person could possible object to being asked "Well, it turns out this is what it will look like.  Are you really sure you want to go through with that?". Especially given that there can be chances to vote out again, but there will never be any option to unwind it once done.

Especially if this is combined with a strategy of sending BJ, Gove, and Farage off to Europe, and telling them not to come back until they've negotiated a deal for what they promised people.

Quote
On Sunday, the BBC learned that HSBC plans to move up to 1,000 staff from London to Paris if the UK leaves the single market.

The staff who would be relocated would be those who process payments made in euros for HSBC in Canary Wharf.

On Friday, sources told the BBC that up to 2,000 jobs at the US investment bank Morgan Stanley could be moved from London to Dublin or Frankfurt.

Other banks may make a similar move if the current "passport" arrangement is lost.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Russ on June 27, 2016, 04:24:35 pm

I know that some people will ideologically demand it's a one off two fingered response to everyone and everything, but I can't see that any reasonable person could possible object to being asked "Well, it turns out this is what it will look like.  Are you really sure you want to go through with that?". Especially given that there can be chances to vote out again, but there will never be any option to unwind it once done.


"You have chosen to move economy.exe and socialcontract.bat to the Trash Can. Are you sure you want to proceed?"
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Rich B on June 27, 2016, 04:28:07 pm

I'm all for proceeding on the basis of the referendum result.  When we have negotiated a deal to leave, and have a clearer picture of what that will mean to people, then it must be put to the people of the country again, before article 50 is activated.

Otherwise we risk the absolute and fundamentally ridiculous situation that what may be a unique set of events, has persuaded a narrow majority of predominately disaffected people, to f*ck the whole country over for all time.

I know that some people will ideologically demand it's a one off two fingered response to everyone and everything, but I can't see that any reasonable person could possible object to being asked "Well, it turns out this is what it will look like.  Are you really sure you want to go through with that?". Especially given that there can be chances to vote out again, but there will never be any option to unwind it once done.

Especially if this is combined with a strategy of sending BJ, Gove, and Farage off to Europe, and telling them not to come back until they've negotiated a deal for what they promised people.


Tricky old fruit, the referendum was In or Out. Out won and no matter how wailing and gnashing of teeth the vote remains. No second referendum, no "this is what you could have won".

You lot lost - live with it and get over it.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Simon. Not Steve or Nazimon on June 27, 2016, 04:31:13 pm

Tricky old fruit, the referendum was In or Out. Out won and no matter how wailing and gnashing of teeth the vote remains. No second referendum, no "this is what you could have won".

You lot lost - live with it and get over it.


Boris seems to be angling for EEA membership. So, free movement and still contributing to the EU at similar levels but no say in how it's run (no veto on Turkey joining for instance.)

Happy with that?
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Lessred on June 27, 2016, 04:31:44 pm
That sounds like a perfect solution, well done Boris
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Rich B on June 27, 2016, 04:34:42 pm

Boris seems to be angling for EEA membership. So, free movement and still contributing to the EU at similar levels but no say in how it's run (no veto on Turkey joining for instance.)

Happy with that?

I will be happy with as a minimum; self rule, controlled immigration and Merkel burnt at the stake.

Failing that, the vote was to leave the EU so f*cking well leave
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Russ on June 27, 2016, 04:49:10 pm
This sh!t all started with Boaty Mcf*ckingBoatface. It was a clear sign that people are idiots and can't be trusted with a vote.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: garf on June 27, 2016, 04:49:29 pm

Tricky old fruit, the referendum was In or Out.


Perhaps you'd like to explain to the f*ckwits (tm) who are convinced they've voted for an end to immigration or immigration control
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Simon. Not Steve or Nazimon on June 27, 2016, 04:49:50 pm

I will be happy with as a minimum; self rule, controlled immigration and Merkel burnt at the stake.

Failing that, the vote was to leave the EU so f*cking well leave


And you'd trade, say, doubling or trebling unemployment for controlling immigration? Because fully controlled immigration means no EEA, maybe not even EFTA (Switzerland's referendum on quotas led to them being threatened with expulsion).

If Boris decided that wasn't a price worth paying, so we ended up with a similar level of immigration but were technically outside the EU that would do for you? (These are genuine questions because I can't see the point of the level of disruption we'd go through to end up there.)
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Russ on June 27, 2016, 04:50:51 pm

And you'd trade, say, doubling or trebling unemployment for controlling immigration? Because fully controlled immigration means no EEA, maybe not even EFTA (Switzerland's referendum on quotas led to them being threatened with expulsion).

If Boris decided that wasn't a price worth paying, so we ended up with a similar level of immigration but were technically outside the EU that would do for you? (These are genuine questions because I can't see the point of the level of disruption we'd go through to end up there.)


Of course he would, he's retired. He doesn't give a f*ck about unemployment.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Andyp on June 27, 2016, 04:52:43 pm

I will be happy with as a minimum; self rule, controlled immigration and Merkel burnt at the stake.

Failing that, the vote was to leave the EU so f*cking well leave


I'we no idea what you mean by self rule. We have always been a sovereign state with parliament as the holder of decision making powers. The EEA would leave us with the same level of migration and no extra money for the NHS so maybe a chance to say yes no might suit you? After all that would be more of a say wouldn't it?
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Rich B on June 27, 2016, 04:56:06 pm
In serious mode. There is always a price to pay and always negotiations to be had, but any outcome suitable for the Leave brigade simply has to involve a major step down from the EU and you and I both know that that simply ain't going to happen.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: DaveM on June 27, 2016, 05:01:45 pm
Our Ken, making sense....

Quote
[Clarke] says it is MPs' duty to act in the national interest and says they should not take "broad guidance" from "a plebiscite which has produced a small majority on a broad question after a bad tempered and ill-informed debate".

He suggest the government should consider joining the European Economic Area to give "reassuring order and stability to our economy".



...and bonus points for using the word 'plebiscite'
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Simon. Not Steve or Nazimon on June 27, 2016, 05:07:29 pm

In serious mode. There is always a price to pay and always negotiations to be had, but any outcome suitable for the Leave brigade simply has to involve a major step down from the EU and you and I both know that that simply ain't going to happen.


So you are saying there is no outcome suitable for the leave brigade? I pretty much agree, so let's f*ck them, ignore it and just stay in.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: tricky on June 27, 2016, 05:08:17 pm

Tricky old fruit, the referendum was In or Out. Out won and no matter how wailing and gnashing of teeth the vote remains. No second referendum, no "this is what you could have won".

You lot lost - live with it and get over it.


Sorry old fruit, but the referendum was advisory, not legally binding (http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/23/eu-referendum-legally-binding-brexit-lisbon-cameron-sovereign-parliament).  The act of parliament that enacted the holding of the vote specifically excluded any provision to make it a legislative requirement to enact the outcome you desire.

Quote
...no legal provision was included in the EU referendum legislation that requires the UK Parliament to act in accordance with the outcome of the referendum.


Ironically parliament is sovereign, so neither the EU, nor you, can force article 50 to be enacted by the UK. I'm afraid you've been lied to, or perhaps are too ill-informed or thick to understand the detail.

If it could be guaranteed that we could leave the EU on the terms that most people understand was being promised by the leave campaign, I'm sure a lot more people would have voted to leave.  Me included....but nobody can, it can't be delivered on, and parliament would be extremely unwise to trigger such a catastrophic event.

I have absolutely no problem in the government of the day working towards the spirit of what a (very minor) majority voted for.  I have a massive f*cking problem if what is delivered is in no way representative of what people thought they would get, and parliament ducks it's responsibility and passes legislation to f*ck all of us for all time.

Quote
....On the day the result of the referendum became known, the Prime Minister David Cameron did not do something, and I believe the omission was significant (I have discussed this here).
In essence, Cameron did not invoke Article 50: no notification was sent to the European Union. In my view, the failure to send the notification on the very day after the referendum will mean that there is a strong chance it will never be sent at all.


So the Prime minister with a mandate to rule, who put the legislation through parliament, has resigned.  It would present a massive constitutional challenge for a new Prime Minister, one who has not won a  general election, to immediately invoke such a complex (legally, politically, and constitutionally - forget about the catastrophic economics for a while) piece of legislation.

We know that it will likely take until October for the conservatives to sort out their leadership. There will need to be long and complex negotiation over the legal, constitutional, and practical issues surrounding a withdrawl from Europe. There would likely need to be a general election with a clear majority verdict for a party receiving a mandate to enact the appropriate legislation.

Don't hold your breath.

Looks like you've bought more than one pup this week.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: DaveM on June 27, 2016, 05:14:25 pm
I have had several people at work today suggesting I should just 'get over it'....this is, after knowing my views on the subject, waltzing over to my desk to ask me how I feel about the situation.....

Thing is, I have been only vaguely political through my life. I tend to care about stuff and root for stuff happening which dictates how I vote, and I follow it and when it disappoints - which it often does - I try to focus on how we could make things better and not dwell on whatever it was that has gone wrong. I've seldom moaned, or even really discussed politics particularly openly (this site being an exception) over the years.

All this time I have heard people get angry and annoyed about a myriad of things, to which I have never - to my knowledge - told them to wind their neck in and 'get over it'.

So this monumental f*ck up of a referendum, with it's far reaching, complex and irreversible end-game has me, I think, rightly upset. I don't want to get into name calling or anything like that, but I do think a large slew of the electorate didn't know what they were voting for, or were voting on the basis of thin air due to empty promises by the leave campaign. This isn't just theoretical stuff - it's demonstrable, quantifiable bullsh!t.

I want to reserve the right to continue to be angry about this and hope for some sort of remedial action right up til the point that Article 50 is triggered. I have never been militant about anything in my life, so don't particularly appreciate being told to 'get over it' like it's some local council election I'm annoyed about, or a football game where I'm unhappy with a penalty decision.

I don't expect the outcome to be good or decisions to be reversed of course. But when you are talking about give-or-take 50% of the country and a majority of elected parliament members wanting a similar thing, I would hope that at least some thinking will go into how to make these voters more content.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Richoriginal on June 27, 2016, 07:07:32 pm

In serious mode. There is always a price to pay and always negotiations to be had, but any outcome suitable for the Leave brigade simply has to involve a major step down from the EU and you and I both know that that simply ain't going to happen.


So you're admitting that what you voted for isn't achievable. Excellent. So, you do know you were completely mugged.

Mugged twice. Once in that what you were promised isn't deliverable and again because it was a glorified opinion poll. No requirement to carry out what the opinion poll delivered.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Richoriginal on June 27, 2016, 07:16:16 pm
Hey brexiters. Care to spin this one away?

(On our credit rating being downgraded) "The agency blamed the Brexit vote, saying it has weakened the UK’s “predictability, stability and effectiveness” of policymaking in the UK.

It also believes that growth will be ‘significantly lower’ between 2016 and 2019, averaging just 1.1% per year.

They also warned that foreign firms are less likely to invest in the UK and the sterling could also lose its role as a global reserve currency."
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Guru on June 27, 2016, 07:22:57 pm

Hey brexiters. Care to spin this one away?

(On our credit rating being downgraded) "The agency blamed the Brexit vote, saying it has weakened the UK’s “predictability, stability and effectiveness” of policymaking in the UK.

It also believes that growth will be ‘significantly lower’ between 2016 and 2019, averaging just 1.1% per year.

They also warned that foreign firms are less likely to invest in the UK and the sterling could also lose its role as a global reserve currency."


f*ck off...that's just Project FEAR!!! Never mind the FTSE250 has tanked and the £ is at a 31year low. Never mind that hate crimes have gone through the roof. Never mind that all the promises have been broken. WE HAVE OUR COUNTRY BACK!!!!!!
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Richoriginal on June 27, 2016, 07:35:54 pm

the £ is at a 31year low.


But but but but Boris only said this morning the pound was strong. Don't tell me... He was lying?!

Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Simon. Not Steve or Nazimon on June 27, 2016, 07:37:21 pm
Parliamentary debate on Brexit today. Gove and Boris not able to attend, even though they've just succeeded in establishing its supremacy. Odd.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: garf on June 27, 2016, 07:37:38 pm

But but but but Boris only said this morning the pound was strong. Don't tell me... He was lying?!


It's okay no one will notice.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: jp on June 27, 2016, 07:50:48 pm

In serious mode. There is always a price to pay and always negotiations to be had, but any outcome suitable for the Leave brigade simply has to involve a major step down from the EU and you and I both know that that simply ain't going to happen.


Exactly.   No one is going to take responsibility for sending the letter to the EU which says "we leave", until there is an acceptable compromise. But there can't be an acceptable compromise because we don't get to have the benefits of free movement without being committed to free movement for everyone else. So nothing is going to happen soon, and probably nothing is going to happen at all. But in the mean time the economy, and this country''s reputation, is taking a fearful pounding. One which could set us back years. 

Sure the remain voters lost, but the leave voters lost too. No one will come out of this with what they want and we will all  be much the poorer. And hopelessly divided. 

Outstanding work, dickheads!
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on June 27, 2016, 07:54:56 pm

But but but but Boris only said this morning the pound was strong. Don't tell me... He was lying?!


He never lies. Exactly. The Pound is still higher against the Zimbabwe Dollar than it was in 2013.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on June 27, 2016, 07:56:37 pm

Hey brexiters. Care to spin this one away?

(On our credit rating being downgraded) "The agency blamed the Brexit vote, saying it has weakened the UK’s “predictability, stability and effectiveness” of policymaking in the UK.

It also believes that growth will be ‘significantly lower’ between 2016 and 2019, averaging just 1.1% per year.

They also warned that foreign firms are less likely to invest in the UK and the sterling could also lose its role as a global reserve currency."


One thing about projections for growth is that they are always wrong. However, they are consistently wrong in the same direction: if growth is slowing, they underestimate the fall and vice versa. I recall reading in the Economist back in September 2008 that there would not be a recession, more likely a slowdown.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Rich B on June 27, 2016, 08:00:39 pm

So you are saying there is no outcome suitable for the leave brigade? I pretty much agree, so let's f*ck them, ignore it and just stay in.

Nice try, but no cigar.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Rich B on June 27, 2016, 08:03:01 pm

So you're admitting that what you voted for isn't achievable. Excellent. So, you do know you were completely mugged.

Mugged twice. Once in that what you were promised isn't deliverable and again because it was a glorified opinion poll. No requirement to carry out what the opinion poll delivered.

No, I said that any negotiations would require a compromise / climb down from the EU and it is their rigidity and intransigence which has pissed most folks off
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Rich B on June 27, 2016, 08:04:58 pm

Sorry old fruit, but the referendum was advisory, not legally binding (http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/23/eu-referendum-legally-binding-brexit-lisbon-cameron-sovereign-parliament).  The act of parliament that enacted the holding of the vote specifically excluded any provision to make it a legislative requirement to enact the outcome you desire.

Ironically parliament is sovereign, so neither the EU, nor you, can force article 50 to be enacted by the UK. I'm afraid you've been lied to, or perhaps are too ill-informed or thick to understand the detail.

If it could be guaranteed that we could leave the EU on the terms that most people understand was being promised by the leave campaign, I'm sure a lot more people would have voted to leave.  Me included....but nobody can, it can't be delivered on, and parliament would be extremely unwise to trigger such a catastrophic event.

I have absolutely no problem in the government of the day working towards the spirit of what a (very minor) majority voted for.  I have a massive f*cking problem if what is delivered is in no way representative of what people thought they would get, and parliament ducks it's responsibility and passes legislation to f*ck all of us for all time.

So the Prime minister with a mandate to rule, who put the legislation through parliament, has resigned.  It would present a massive constitutional challenge for a new Prime Minister, one who has not won a  general election, to immediately invoke such a complex (legally, politically, and constitutionally - forget about the catastrophic economics for a while) piece of legislation.

We know that it will likely take until October for the conservatives to sort out their leadership. There will need to be long and complex negotiation over the legal, constitutional, and practical issues surrounding a withdrawl from Europe. There would likely need to be a general election with a clear majority verdict for a party receiving a mandate to enact the appropriate legislation.

Don't hold your breath.

Looks like you've bought more than one pup this week.

Yes I know it's only advisory but take a seriously strong government to ignore it
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Lessred on June 27, 2016, 08:17:09 pm

No, I said that any negotiations would require a compromise / climb down from the EU and it is their rigidity and intransigence which has pissed most folks off


Surely both sides need to compromise?
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Richoriginal on June 27, 2016, 08:18:18 pm

No, I said that any negotiations would require a compromise / climb down from the EU and it is their rigidity and intransigence which has pissed most folks off


they have no need to climb down. The Leave campaign aleady are. ("that money for the NHS? Oh no, we didn't mean it")
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Richoriginal on June 27, 2016, 08:20:41 pm

Yes I know it's only advisory but take a seriously strong government to ignore it


Which is actually what Cameron did by saying he wasn't going to notify Article 50.

What it needs is a PM with balls to do it. And just where were Boris and Gove today when there was a debate in Parliment when they could have been yelling "we won the referendum! Notify Article 50!"? Oh yes, that's right. No where to be seen.

You've been mugged.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: BrettWilliams on June 27, 2016, 08:22:38 pm

It was a clear sign that people are idiots and can't be trusted with a vote.


It's why we vote in elected representatives. It's fatal to hand over a decision of this magnitude to a large group of people, a decent chunk of whom don't really understand what it's all about. You can blame both sides' campaigning for some of that, but the referendum should never have taken place in the first place. If you whip up a load of poorly-educated, disillusioned folk who have every right to feel they been ignored and abandoned by the political elite, we shouldn't be surprised if this happens.

Cameron's legacy ought now to be bringing about totally unnecessary conflict between one half of the country and the other (including young and old), and breaking up the UK. I suspect, like Boris, he's going to get away with it, such is the farcical nature of the Labour Party. Both those cnuts would be being held to account by stronger opposition.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on June 27, 2016, 08:43:53 pm

Hey brexiters. Care to spin this one away?

(On our credit rating being downgraded) "The agency blamed the Brexit vote, saying it has weakened the UK’s “predictability, stability and effectiveness” of policymaking in the UK.

It also believes that growth will be ‘significantly lower’ between 2016 and 2019, averaging just 1.1% per year.

They also warned that foreign firms are less likely to invest in the UK and the sterling could also lose its role as a global reserve currency."

I missed the significance in this story at the time.
That is a two notch downgrade which is utterly unprecedented.
Two notches and a negative outlook!
Going to make the cost of issuing new debt rise significantly unless the BoE prints some money to buy our own debt. At what point to we have to call in the IMF?
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: DaveM on June 27, 2016, 08:51:30 pm

It's why we vote in elected representatives. It's fatal to hand over a decision of this magnitude to a large group of people, a decent chunk of whom don't really understand what it's all about. You can blame both sides' campaigning for some of that, but the referendum should never have taken place in the first place. If you whip up a load of poorly-educated, disillusioned folk who have every right to feel they been ignored and abandoned by the political elite, we shouldn't be surprised if this happens.

Cameron's legacy ought now to be bringing about totally unnecessary conflict between one half of the country and the other (including young and old), and breaking up the UK. I suspect, like Boris, he's going to get away with it, such is the farcical nature of the Labour Party. Both those cnuts would be being held to account by stronger opposition.


Problem is the leader of the labour party is culpable too.

Basically, every side is a shower right now. There needs to be a complete re-set and Article 50 can wait until we have sorted ourselves out, and then a plan in place. Pulling the trigger on Brexit whilst we are colectively in this mess is a disaster waiting to happen
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Richoriginal on June 27, 2016, 08:58:06 pm


Problem is the leader of the labour party is culpable too.



Well, calling this referendum wasn't anything to do with the Labour party - this was a Conservative issue through and through.


Basically, every side is a shower right now. There needs to be a complete re-set and Article 50 can wait until we have sorted ourselves out, and then a plan in place. Pulling the trigger on Brexit whilst we are colectively in this mess is a disaster waiting to happen


yup.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: DaveM on June 27, 2016, 09:01:55 pm

Well, calling this referendum wasn't anything to do with the Labour party - this was a Conservative issue through and through.



I give you that, but given it was happening....Corbyn basically hid rather than rally his grass-roots voters
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: jp on June 27, 2016, 09:04:04 pm
There are many lessons to be learned from this debacle*, but one obvious one is this: don't ever vote Tory again. Ever.  Even if you have been tempted to before. The Tory does not have your interests at heart and never will do.





That's a French word, Rich and Donny.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: jp on June 27, 2016, 09:30:32 pm
Wondering if Rich B and Donny''s mates/family will be out trashing the nearest branches of Iceland tonight. Just in case you wondered,  dickheads, Iceland is not in the EU.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Jüânfrân on June 27, 2016, 09:43:32 pm

, Iceland is not in the EU.

And their football team is ace - another reason to leave the EUl you get better football teams.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: dunc on June 27, 2016, 10:31:00 pm

Yes I know it's only advisory but take a seriously strong government to ignore it


I think a seriously strong government has been needed for yonks and never needed more (in recent times) than at the moment
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: jp on June 27, 2016, 10:41:38 pm
I am  - seriously - anticipating something like a national unity government. There hasn't been a crisis like this - to our economy, leavy f*cktards - for a very long time. Over the next three months it is going to become catastrophic. Are people really going to sit back and say "OK,  they voted out, we will just live with it"? I don't see that happening,
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Nottingham Florist on June 27, 2016, 10:43:55 pm

Yes I know it's only advisory but take a seriously strong government to ignore it


I agree, kind of.

Not a strong government. A mad government. The Brexit vote is a result of huge numbers of people having no faith and trust in politicians or experts, in the light of overwhelming evidence. A government would have to be mad to defy the will of the people, even when it's such an unsavoury outcome. That way would lead to Britain First / EDL fascism.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: jp on June 27, 2016, 11:08:36 pm

I agree, kind of.

Not a strong government. A mad government. The Brexit vote is a result of huge numbers of people having no faith and trust in politicians or experts, in the light of overwhelming evidence. A government would have to be mad to defy the will of the people, even when it's such an unsavoury outcome. That way would lead to Britain First / EDL fascism.


Nah. A smart and strong government which actually has an idea about what is in the country''s best interests would find a way round this. Say, perhaps,  a clever government which knew how to operate like Rupert Murdoch does.

Unfortunately we do not have one of those, but instead we have a dad''s army type assemblage of people who are a lot less clever than they think they are , but at the same time cannot take responsibility for writing a suicide note. So they won't,  and we will end up with a government that ignores the outcome of the referendum, mainly because it is too cowardly to implement it and wouldn't know how to anyway.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: tricky on June 27, 2016, 11:11:36 pm
Cowardly they can do.  Leadership not so much.  Look around the political elite, they hardly have the aura of towering intellectuals or savvy political operators.

Just a bunch of chiseling little sound bite merchants.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: DaveM on June 27, 2016, 11:16:07 pm

There are many lessons to be learned from this debacle*, but one obvious one is this: don't ever vote Tory again. Ever.  Even if you have been tempted to before. The Tory does not have your interests at heart and never will do.


At the rate we are going, the conservatives could well split down the middle, as could Labour.

A self-serving self-destructing Tory party or an unelectable self destructing shambles in Labour. It's a tough one.

If Tim Farron doesn't use all this as a springboard to get some vote share back then he is mad.

Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: tricky on June 27, 2016, 11:19:08 pm

.....If Tim Farron doesn't use all this as a springboard to get some vote share back then he is mad.


Who is Tim Farron?

Already resources for actually running stuff is being directed away from that, into "what the f*ck do we do now" scenario planning.  It's not sexy but unwinding all the systems and payments, and interwoven policy (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/06/27/uk_digi_strategy_on_hold_post_brexit/) is a massive job - read will take a lot of time, at huge cost.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Richoriginal on June 27, 2016, 11:21:04 pm

Who is Tim Farron?

Already resources for actually running stuff is being directed away from that, into "what the f*ck do we do now" scenario planning.  It's not sexy but unwinding all the systems and payments, and interwoven policy (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/06/27/uk_digi_strategy_on_hold_post_brexit/) is a massive job - read will take a lot of time, at huge cost.


BUT WE'VE GOT OUR COUNTRY BACK.

What a bunch of f*cktards.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: DaveM on June 27, 2016, 11:23:11 pm

Who is Tim Farron?



Very droll
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Richoriginal on June 27, 2016, 11:23:49 pm
f*ck my boots, even Kelvin McKenzie is regretting his leave vote:

Quote from: from the lefty rag

Be careful what you wish for. So explains the Brexiteer and Sun columnist Kelvin MacKenzie on why, four days on, he has buyer’s remorse over his vote to leave, write Karen McVeigh and Carmen Fishwick.

    MacKenzie may be the one of highest-profile figures so far to publicly admit regret over his vote, but he is not alone.

    Hashtags such as #Bregret #Bregretters and #Bregreter have sprung up on social media, while a poll by Survation for the Mail on Sunday found 7.1% of leave voters expressed regret over their decision, compared with 4.4% of remain voters.

    MacKenzie, in his column on Monday, described the “surge” he felt when he voted leave, “as though for the first time in my life my vote did count. I had power.”

    But he said on Monday: “Four days later, I don’t feel quite the same. I’ve buyer’s remorse. A sense of be careful what you wish for. To be truthful, I am fearful of what lies ahead.”

Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: garf on June 27, 2016, 11:24:24 pm

Very droll


I had to Google him. And I used to be a (literally) card carrying Liberal.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Guru on June 27, 2016, 11:26:43 pm

BUT WE'VE GOT OUR COUNTRY BACK.

What a bunch of f*cktards.


DON'T YOU DARE PATRONISE ME THAT I DIDN'T KNOW WHAT I WAS VOTING FOR....GET OVER IT, YOU LOST! STOP WHINING!

And who cares about digital mumbo-jumbo or science and research? I don't understand it anyway so what's the point?
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: tricky on June 27, 2016, 11:29:42 pm
Don't get me started on research. There is a real danger that we will be committing an act of intellectual destruction (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/06/24/science_vs_brexit/) (on ourselves, no less!)  not seen since the burning of the library of Alexandria.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: DaveM on June 27, 2016, 11:51:59 pm

Don't get me started on research. There is a real danger that we will be committing an act of intellectual destruction (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/06/24/science_vs_brexit/) (on ourselves, no less!)  not seen since the burning of the library of Alexandria.


Research funding is one of my pet subjects, as I used to work in an R&D organisation (set up by Churchill to encourage closer european cooperation in research and engineering, as it happens) on EU-funded projects, and worked closely with multiple consortium members across europe as well as the EC itself.

The EC's 'Framework Programme' for R&D is immensely useful centrally funded research and innovation instrument, which allows consortium-led research work to take place between member states, with the IP eventually going to a small commercial enterprise.

In other words, if you own a small business and have a great idea but don't have the R&D capability, you can apply to the EC for funding (usually via a third party, like the company I worked for), and if approved you will spearhead a consortium of academic institutions which work together on the research bit, along with a number of other small businesses across the region who will help develop the prototype. All you have to do is help steer the direction and produce the business case. All of this centrally funded (you would be funded for expenses only). At the end of the project - usually 2yrs - you will receive any R&D output and intellectual property in order to take to market - the idea being you will already have a pan-european supply-chain made from the small businesses involved in the project. If you need further money to take to market, you can apply for that too (up to 1m euro - at least a few years back).

Most of the projects I was involved in were around the €2m mark. Not small-fry at all. I was involved in informatics primarily, but lots of other disciplines were funded too.

Projects included home automation for the elderly/disabled, annotation of video footage for crime investigation purposes based on image recognition algorithms, re-development of full-body mm-wave scanners to reduce electronic cost, 3d-fashion design tools to reduce manufacturing costs etc.

Post brexit, you won't have access to this fund, and would have to apply to whatever the UK government would have it it's place (there used to be something called the TSB, or Technology Strategy Board you could apply to), but the budgets are far lower and you are limited to only UK academic institutions. Given that the yearly EU budget for the framework programme is somewhere in the region of €8bn - €10bn, the coverage won't even come close.

It's things like this which the majority of your 'man on the street' finds boring or dull and therefore pays no attention to, but it is exactly this kind of funding which really does exploit brains and capability across the EU to deliver real, tangible results.

Chalk it down to another casualty in the war of 'making Britain great again'

This is the latest framework programme, if anyone is interested (doubtful but hey) https://ec.europa.eu/programmes/horizon2020/en/what-horizon-2020
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Seán on June 28, 2016, 06:39:00 am

Research funding is one of my pet subjects, as I used to work in an R&D organisation (set up by Churchill to encourage closer european cooperation in research and engineering, as it happens) on EU-funded projects, and worked closely with multiple consortium members across europe as well as the EC itself.

The EC's 'Framework Programme' for R&D is immensely useful centrally funded research and innovation instrument, which allows consortium-led research work to take place between member states, with the IP eventually going to a small commercial enterprise.

In other words, if you own a small business and have a great idea but don't have the R&D capability, you can apply to the EC for funding (usually via a third party, like the company I worked for), and if approved you will spearhead a consortium of academic institutions which work together on the research bit, along with a number of other small businesses across the region who will help develop the prototype. All you have to do is help steer the direction and produce the business case. All of this centrally funded (you would be funded for expenses only). At the end of the project - usually 2yrs - you will receive any R&D output and intellectual property in order to take to market - the idea being you will already have a pan-european supply-chain made from the small businesses involved in the project. If you need further money to take to market, you can apply for that too (up to 1m euro - at least a few years back).

Most of the projects I was involved in were around the €2m mark. Not small-fry at all. I was involved in informatics primarily, but lots of other disciplines were funded too.

Projects included home automation for the elderly/disabled, annotation of video footage for crime investigation purposes based on image recognition algorithms, re-development of full-body mm-wave scanners to reduce electronic cost, 3d-fashion design tools to reduce manufacturing costs etc.

Post brexit, you won't have access to this fund, and would have to apply to whatever the UK government would have it it's place (there used to be something called the TSB, or Technology Strategy Board you could apply to), but the budgets are far lower and you are limited to only UK academic institutions. Given that the yearly EU budget for the framework programme is somewhere in the region of €8bn - €10bn, the coverage won't even come close.

It's things like this which the majority of your 'man on the street' finds boring or dull and therefore pays no attention to, but it is exactly this kind of funding which really does exploit brains and capability across the EU to deliver real, tangible results.

Chalk it down to another casualty in the war of 'making Britain great again'

This is the latest framework programme, if anyone is interested (doubtful but hey) https://ec.europa.eu/programmes/horizon2020/en/what-horizon-2020


I worked for such an SME in Chesterfield 10 years ago.

Except the guy who started  that place was the smuggest and yet clueless narcissistic self deluded cockknocker I've ever come across professionally.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Nottingham Florist on June 28, 2016, 07:15:11 am

Research funding is one of my pet subjects, as I used to work in an R&D organisation (set up by Churchill to encourage closer european cooperation in research and engineering, as it happens) on EU-funded projects, and worked closely with multiple consortium members across europe as well as the EC itself.

The EC's 'Framework Programme' for R&D is immensely useful centrally funded research and innovation instrument, which allows consortium-led research work to take place between member states, with the IP eventually going to a small commercial enterprise.

In other words, if you own a small business and have a great idea but don't have the R&D capability, you can apply to the EC for funding (usually via a third party, like the company I worked for), and if approved you will spearhead a consortium of academic institutions which work together on the research bit, along with a number of other small businesses across the region who will help develop the prototype. All you have to do is help steer the direction and produce the business case. All of this centrally funded (you would be funded for expenses only). At the end of the project - usually 2yrs - you will receive any R&D output and intellectual property in order to take to market - the idea being you will already have a pan-european supply-chain made from the small businesses involved in the project. If you need further money to take to market, you can apply for that too (up to 1m euro - at least a few years back).

Most of the projects I was involved in were around the €2m mark. Not small-fry at all. I was involved in informatics primarily, but lots of other disciplines were funded too.

Projects included home automation for the elderly/disabled, annotation of video footage for crime investigation purposes based on image recognition algorithms, re-development of full-body mm-wave scanners to reduce electronic cost, 3d-fashion design tools to reduce manufacturing costs etc.

Post brexit, you won't have access to this fund, and would have to apply to whatever the UK government would have it it's place (there used to be something called the TSB, or Technology Strategy Board you could apply to), but the budgets are far lower and you are limited to only UK academic institutions. Given that the yearly EU budget for the framework programme is somewhere in the region of €8bn - €10bn, the coverage won't even come close.

It's things like this which the majority of your 'man on the street' finds boring or dull and therefore pays no attention to, but it is exactly this kind of funding which really does exploit brains and capability across the EU to deliver real, tangible results.

Chalk it down to another casualty in the war of 'making Britain great again'

This is the latest framework programme, if anyone is interested (doubtful but hey) https://ec.europa.eu/programmes/horizon2020/en/what-horizon-2020


Lefty scum.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Simon. Not Steve or Nazimon on June 28, 2016, 07:32:40 am

There are many lessons to be learned from this debacle*, but one obvious one is this: don't ever vote Tory again. Ever.  Even if you have been tempted to before. The Tory does not have your interests at heart and never will do.





That's a French word, Rich and Donny.


Not speaking in favour of the Tories but the main alternative is a party that spent ten years in power with all policy conducted as a power struggle between its two main players and then went into a war so they could stay friends with George Bush. And currently appears to have a leader and membership in direct conflict with its MPs over what it actually stands for.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Simon. Not Steve or Nazimon on June 28, 2016, 07:37:30 am

I agree, kind of.

Not a strong government. A mad government. The Brexit vote is a result of huge numbers of people having no faith and trust in politicians or experts, in the light of overwhelming evidence. A government would have to be mad to defy the will of the people, even when it's such an unsavoury outcome. That way would lead to Britain First / EDL fascism.


But what happens when there is massive recession (with proper austerity, like halving all benefits) as a result of the will of the people? Its not as if the people are going to collectively realise they've f*cked up and let the government off (and that is their right - how moronic would a government have to be to have a referendum where that was one of the two outcomes?)
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on June 28, 2016, 07:37:50 am

Not speaking in favour of the Tories but the main alternative is a party that spent ten years in power with all policy conducted as a power struggle between its two main players and then went into a war so they could stay friends with George Bush. And currently appears to have a leader and membership in direct conflict with its MPs over what it actually stands for.


And yet still the Tories have managed to outdo them.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on June 28, 2016, 08:00:33 am
As the fallout continues and we survey the wreckage a few thoughts spring to mind:

1. Nobody had picked up on the social consequences of the vote. Sure, there were complaints about racism and too much focus on immigration, we have surpassed all that. That a large proportion of the population was pissed we knew already; we didn't expect the other half to become equally pissed off leaving us with a kind of peaceful (racist attacks aside) civil war

2. The consequences of 1 mean that we are left in a political vacuum. Farage is the only viable populist demagogue on the scene given that Boris appears to have bottled it as soon as he realised that he could no longer lie and get away with it. One of the fears must be that the vacuum paves the way for a rival populist demagogue to emerge. If we learn one thing from this debacle it must be that we have to be extra vigilant of those who offer simple solutions for complex problems

3. It appears that we *might* have underestimated the economic impact of the Leave vote. I say might because I have no crystal ball and have no more idea than the next person as to the eventual outcome. Recession seems certain; I had lost sight of the fact that this may lead to credit downgrades. Economics and politics are perpetual bedfellows; changes in the polity of a nation inevitably have an impact on the perception of that economy and I don't think this effect was priced in to economic discourse

4. We are being taught a harsh lesson in what happens if you reject globalisation. Whatever your thoughts on globalisation, the truth is that the UK was one of the first to plug in to the system and has one of the most open economies on the planet. By voting to Leave the EU we have sent a message to the global markets that we are closing our doors. That may not be the actual case given the types who look likely to seize power, but that is the perception

5. Follows on from 4. The myopia from those in power about Britain's standing in the global economy has exceeded everyone's expectations. To place the economy at such risk given that we are probably one of the most reliant on globalisation on the planet, is bordering on criminal negligence.

6. False economies. For years I have been boring people to death about house prices in this country. For the past 35 years we have diverted a substantial amount of capital into housing stock, quite possibly the least productive means of investment. Placing capital in housing stock does not improve productivity elsewhere in the economy and does not make us more competitive globally. In fact, it is worse than that: not only have we diverted capital from genuinely productive allocation such as investing in companies, but the government has also diverted public capital from infrastructure and social policies into the housing market in order to shore up their own vote

7. Housing boom crowds out investment. The follow on from 6 is that capital that could have gone into productive industries in areas outside of London and the South East has instead been diverted into a housing bubble. This in turn has led to the banks either throwing more money at the housing market, or investing in risky assets in order to try and return some gains. One of the few things that economists agree on is that the value of an item is equal to what someone is prepared to pay. The fact that the capital has been sunk into housing stock is no guarantee that it can be released in the future

8. Casino Stock Market. I loathe the term 'Casino stock market' as I think it is horribly cliched. However, the primary function of the stock market is supposed to be to allocate capital to companies who then provide returns on that capital and increase overall wealth. The overarching dominance of the financial sector in the UK combined with ever more sophisticated methods of trading has led to an increasing short term outlook on capital returns. The price of a stock is supposed to be a function of past performance and perceived future returns, not an extension of one of the few growth areas in the economy: gambling

There's more, but these are just a few initial thoughts to be getting on with...
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: JimShady on June 28, 2016, 08:05:36 am
It occurred to me yesterday about the migrant camp at Calais. Surely the French aren't going to be interested in helping us with that much longer. The camp will have to be re-established over here won't it? Again, at great expense
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on June 28, 2016, 08:18:41 am

It occurred to me yesterday about the migrant camp at Calais. Surely the French aren't going to be interested in helping us with that much longer. The camp will have to be re-established over here won't it? Again, at great expense


Playing catch up? I believe that one came up on Friday, along with the fact that we may have to impose border controls on this side of the Channel.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Simon. Not Steve or Nazimon on June 28, 2016, 08:41:25 am

Playing catch up? I believe that one came up on Friday, along with the fact that we may have to impose border controls on this side of the Channel.


Cameron raised it in February: http://www.kentonline.co.uk/folkestone/news/folkestone-could-have-migrant-camps-90575/

But was dismissed as "Project Fear".

If France stop us from doing passport checks on their side, then we are basically going to have to put a lot more security onto our side but I don't see how there would be camps - there's no way we can justify, effectively, prison camps for illegal immigrants or refugees.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on June 28, 2016, 08:46:31 am

Cameron raised it in February: http://www.kentonline.co.uk/folkestone/news/folkestone-could-have-migrant-camps-90575/

But was dismissed as "Project Fear".

If France stop us from doing passport checks on their side, then we are basically going to have to put a lot more security onto our side but I don't see how there would be camps - there's no way we can justify, effectively, prison camps for illegal immigrants or refugees.


Don't forget Northern Ireland; the border with the Republic will be the only land border we have with the EU. Migrants who legally enter the Republic of Ireland will be free to walk over the border unless controls are put in place. Given that they couldn't secure the border with army posts and watchtowers during the troubles they will either have to spend a lot of money or break promises on immigration (surprise). The other alternative is to enforce controls on people entering Great Britain from Northern Ireland which also causes problems. No easy win on that one. What a surprise that was never picked up outside of Northern Ireland itself...
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Simon. Not Steve or Nazimon on June 28, 2016, 08:57:26 am

Don't forget Northern Ireland; the border with the Republic will be the only land border we have with the EU. Migrants who legally enter the Republic of Ireland will be free to walk over the border unless controls are put in place. Given that they couldn't secure the border with army posts and watchtowers during the troubles they will either have to spend a lot of money or break promises on immigration (surprise). The other alternative is to enforce controls on people entering Great Britain from Northern Ireland which also causes problems. No easy win on that one. What a surprise that was never picked up outside of Northern Ireland itself...


Was brought up: http://www.itv.com/news/utv/2016-06-15/brexit-could-lead-to-uk-border-checks-for-ni-visitors-pm/

Was dismissed as "Project Fear": http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/677126/george-osborne-brexit-ulster-norther-ireland
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: charlie on June 28, 2016, 09:01:24 am
Just had 15 min chat with tory mp David Thomas who says it will all calm down soon. That's all right then.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: steve on June 28, 2016, 09:12:59 am

Don't forget Northern Ireland; the border with the Republic will be the only land border we have with the EU. Migrants who legally enter the Republic of Ireland will be free to walk over the border unless controls are put in place. Given that they couldn't secure the border with army posts and watchtowers during the troubles they will either have to spend a lot of money or break promises on immigration (surprise). The other alternative is to enforce controls on people entering Great Britain from Northern Ireland which also causes problems. No easy win on that one. What a surprise that was never picked up outside of Northern Ireland itself...


The border, or lack of, between north and south is also a key part of the peace agreement isn't it? So even if a border worked reinstating it would create an internal crisis.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Rich B on June 28, 2016, 09:21:32 am

Wondering if Rich B and Donny''s mates/family will be out trashing the nearest branches of Iceland tonight. Just in case you wondered,  dickheads, Iceland is not in the EU.

Wow, who's getting a little serious and antsy eh jp?

Feel free to come call me dickhead to my face, old fruit.

Piss take all you like but that's just a little bit naughty.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on June 28, 2016, 09:41:34 am

The border, or lack of, between north and south is also a key part of the peace agreement isn't it? So even if a border worked reinstating it would create an internal crisis.


It is indeed. So that would leave the only option as border controls between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK which would not play well with Unionists, unless they renegotiate the Good Friday Peace Agreement of course. No wonder the dissident Republicans were pushing their supporters to vote Leave.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: tricky on June 28, 2016, 09:55:01 am
I had a discussion with an educated but disaffected person who feels disenfranchised over the weekend. He knew damn well that a vote leave win would result in massive economic hardship and problems for the establishment. He was prepared to take more pain himself to bloody the nose of people who he felt had been riding him and not listening. It was in effect an act of peaceful revolution for him.

Its a hell of a coalition that's got us here.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: tricky on June 28, 2016, 01:07:03 pm

Wow, who's getting a little serious and antsy eh jp?

Feel free to come call me dickhead to my face, old fruit.

Piss take all you like but that's just a little bit naughty.


If you behave like a dickhead, old fruit, then people will think you are a dickhead. Whether they tell you or not. To know is better, in a knowledge is power sort of a way, surely?  Where is any acceptance of procedure, or the suggestions to achieve anything like what you claim to aspire to? You won a referendum.  Well done.  Now tell me what your understanding of how we proceed from here, what is your belief in what that means for the country as a whole, how will making a forever decision based on a poorly understood and lied about position with a marginal and notional majority on the political, economic, and social framework impact on (what is left of) the UK?  Anything, just give us something that isn't "We take our country back" level moronic rhetoric. I can't speak for others, but I am actually rooting for you to have understanding or acceptance of what comes next.

If you are struggling with any answers, RTFM (http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld201516/ldselect/ldeucom/138/13802.htm) and get back to us when you've unpicked the problems and determined the net cost.

If you have more to offer than sub-gumby level boo boy wooly general statements, then I will happily debate on that level.  If you make the statements of a dickhead, in the face of a large number of factual arguments, none of which you address, then the likelihood is that you will be called a dickhead.

If that's your position then I'm quite happy to call you a dickhead to your face. We actually all have better things to be doing with our time currently, but out of respect for you, and to stand behind what I'm saying (unlike you, you might reflect on) I'll make the effort.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on June 28, 2016, 01:21:05 pm
Boristability?
No doubt there will be those who think that the worst may be over for the Pound and stocks. In the case of stocks they may be partially correct: the main reason for the initial sharp fall was that they had priced in a Remain win; a secondary effect was the uncertainty now created.
So, the Leave win has now been priced in, whilst clearly a price cannot be placed on uncertainty. Economic and political uncertainty do not equal stability, so volatility will remain (which means sharp rises and falls). It is the medium-term depreciation of all assets that we must now look out for (Stocks, Bonds, even housing). Also worth bearing in mind that although prices may not appear to drop, a fall in the Pound automatically lowers values.

Which brings us on to the Pound itself. This morning has brought us a 'dead-cat' bounce; I suspect that this is mostly profit-taking from those who have sold Sterling over the past few days and also possible intervention by Central Banks. Possibly also a bit of a short-squeeze going on (anyone who has seen Billions will have an idea on this one). The medium-term outlook for the Pound is obviously pretty bleak until we get some sort of idea of what may happen. Of course, a weak Pound in theory makes our exports more competitive, but I didn't see much evidence of an export-led recovery back in 2009 when the Pound was close to parity with the Euro. This also raises the spectre of a currency race to the bottom: if the only way we can make ourselves competitive in the world market is to reduce the value of our currency then we really are in trouble. I would argue that the Pound has actually been artificially inflated by our EU membership over the years and has concealed the fact that we have one of the lowest productivity levels of any developed nation.

Well, we will insist on pouring all our money into the property pit. As one analyst described it after the Irish crash: Iceland discovered debt leverage and used it to buy the world; Ireland discovered debt leverage and used it to buy itself. We already suffered the catastrophic effects of the Icelandic mistake; at some point we have to mimic the pain that Ireland went through.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Seán on June 28, 2016, 01:41:06 pm
How many times is it possible to read "only England could leave Europe twice blah blah ho ho" on social meeja, posted by an authorised who genuinely thinks no one else has seen / heard that oh so hilarious jape?

Anyway, am I just deluding myself, but I'm starting to doubt this exit is really actually going to happen. At least not in any way the campaign  sold it. I don't base that on much other than the nature of the idiot changing his mind and the likelihood if some sort of second referendum / veto.



Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Rich B on June 28, 2016, 01:55:11 pm

If you behave like a dickhead, old fruit, then people will think you are a dickhead. Whether they tell you or not. To know is better, in a knowledge is power sort of a way, surely?  Where is any acceptance of procedure, or the suggestions to achieve anything like what you claim to aspire to? You won a referendum.  Well done.  Now tell me what your understanding of how we proceed from here, what is your belief in what that means for the country as a whole, how will making a forever decision based on a poorly understood and lied about position with a marginal and notional majority on the political, economic, and social framework impact on (what is left of) the UK?  Anything, just give us something that isn't "We take our country back" level moronic rhetoric. I can't speak for others, but I am actually rooting for you to have understanding or acceptance of what comes next.

If you are struggling with any answers, RTFM (http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld201516/ldselect/ldeucom/138/13802.htm) and get back to us when you've unpicked the problems and determined the net cost.

If you have more to offer than sub-gumby level boo boy wooly general statements, then I will happily debate on that level.  If you make the statements of a dickhead, in the face of a large number of factual arguments, none of which you address, then the likelihood is that you will be called a dickhead.

If that's your position then I'm quite happy to call you a dickhead to your face. We actually all have better things to be doing with our time currently, but out of respect for you, and to stand behind what I'm saying (unlike you, you might reflect on) I'll make the effort.



If you behave like a dickhead, old fruit, then people will think you are a dickhead. Whether they tell you or not. To know is better, in a knowledge is power sort of a way, surely?  Where is any acceptance of procedure, or the suggestions to achieve anything like what you claim to aspire to? You won a referendum.  Well done.  Now tell me what your understanding of how we proceed from here, what is your belief in what that means for the country as a whole, how will making a forever decision based on a poorly understood and lied about position with a marginal and notional majority on the political, economic, and social framework impact on (what is left of) the UK?  Anything, just give us something that isn't "We take our country back" level moronic rhetoric. I can't speak for others, but I am actually rooting for you to have understanding or acceptance of what comes next.

If you are struggling with any answers, RTFM (http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld201516/ldselect/ldeucom/138/13802.htm) and get back to us when you've unpicked the problems and determined the net cost.

If you have more to offer than sub-gumby level boo boy wooly general statements, then I will happily debate on that level.  If you make the statements of a dickhead, in the face of a large number of factual arguments, none of which you address, then the likelihood is that you will be called a dickhead.

If that's your position then I'm quite happy to call you a dickhead to your face. We actually all have better things to be doing with our time currently, but out of respect for you, and to stand behind what I'm saying (unlike you, you might reflect on) I'll make the effort.


I’m pretty sure that jp doesn’t need you to fight his battles.

You have just let off a load of steam, feel better now, or can I expect any more.

For what it’s worth, my response to jp – and not you but thanks for your input, was to this:

Wondering if Rich B and Donny''s mates/family will be out trashing the nearest branches of Iceland tonight. Just in case you wondered,  dickheads, Iceland is not in the EU.

Which wasn't exactly about Brexit was it?

So toodle off and bore some other c*nt that gives a sh!t about your opinions
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: BrettWilliams on June 28, 2016, 01:57:25 pm
Bloke I work with who has been a regional political adviser for decades remains confident that Brexit won't ultimately happen. He can see a situation where it takes around three months or so for the dust to settle and new political leaders to be appointed, by which time the high-emotion stuff of the past few days will have calmed and what will have emerged is that Brexit is ultimately going to be unworkable and the Leave side have no clear plan on how it can be implemented. At that point, he suspects Parliament may move to dismiss it on those grounds.

Quite where that would leave us with our European neighbours is anyone's guess. I can't share his optimism unfortunately, but it at least gives me something to cling to - however unlikely.

This would also be amusing if true...

http://indy100.independent.co.uk/article/people-are-really-really-hoping-this-theory-about-david-cameron-and-brexit-is-true--bJhqBql0VZ 
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: tricky on June 28, 2016, 02:04:14 pm

I’m pretty sure that jp doesn’t need you to fight his battles.

You have just let off a load of steam, feel better now, or can I expect any more.

For what it’s worth, my response to jp – and not you but thanks for your input, was to this:

Wondering if Rich B and Donny''s mates/family will be out trashing the nearest branches of Iceland tonight. Just in case you wondered,  dickheads, Iceland is not in the EU.

Which wasn't exactly about Brexit was it?

So toodle off and bore some other c*nt that gives a sh!t about your opinions


I'm not fighting JP's battles, I'm asking you to say something substantive, anything with any shred of actual reference to economic, political, or social realities. If you can't, I'm offering to come and call you a dickhead to your face, as per your stated preference.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: garf on June 28, 2016, 02:07:01 pm


This would also be amusing if true...

http://indy100.independent.co.uk/article/people-are-really-really-hoping-this-theory-about-david-cameron-and-brexit-is-true--bJhqBql0VZ


Whether it was deliberate on DC's part or not the end result is the same.
Trouble is it would to take someone pretty ballsy to stand up and say Article 50 won't be triggered as well.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Richoriginal on June 28, 2016, 02:08:41 pm

I'm not fighting JP's battles, I'm asking you to say something substantive, anything with any shred of actual reference to economic, political, or social realities. If you can't, I'm offering to come and call you a dickhead to your face, as per your stated preference.


Whilst I don't want to come inbetween you two and your dickhead slanging match, RichB, I would also love to hear your reasons for voting to leave.

I don't reall know anyone who voted out. There was someone formally of this Parish that voted out and we had a twitter exchange about it - he told me he voted out because "he was fed up of being shafted by Europe". Ok, so I asked him, how he personally had been shafted by europe? "Well, not me personally" was his reply. And thats as much as he had.

So RichB, just why did you vote leave?
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Rich B on June 28, 2016, 02:12:39 pm

I'm not fighting JP's battles, I'm asking you to say something substantive, anything with any shred of actual reference to economic, political, or social realities. If you can't, I'm offering to come and call you a dickhead to your face, as per your stated preference.

Yes you are, this had f*ck all to do with Brexit - understand that? f*ck ALL TO DO WITH BREXIT, yet you ranted on like a f*cking loon as Euro this that and the other giving links to the HoL etc etc.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: DaveM on June 28, 2016, 02:22:45 pm

Whether it was deliberate on DC's part or not the end result is the same.
Trouble is it would to take someone pretty ballsy to stand up and say Article 50 won't be triggered as well.


Or someone vaguely independent.

Unfortunately, both main parties have lost their big main hitters, who would be perfect right now to restore a degree of control and plain speaking if they were ready to lead their troops. I'm talking about Mr W.Hague and Mr D.Milliband here by the way.

Tempt one of them back in to frontline politics and get them to stand up and say what a sham this all is

(I know, won't happen. Still...)
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Simon. Not Steve or Nazimon on June 28, 2016, 02:22:52 pm

Whether it was deliberate on DC's part or not the end result is the same.
Trouble is it would to take someone pretty ballsy to stand up and say Article 50 won't be triggered as well.



They won't actually say it though will they? They'll just delay until not having triggered Article 50 is the normal state of British politics.

I follow a lawyer on twitter who's been posting a lot about article 50 (and wrote the FT piece) and he's fond of pointing out that the tories have been promising a British Bill of Rights to replace the human rights act since before the 2005 election and still haven't even come up with a proposal for what that could look like. Negotiating a settlement with the EU is going to be harder than that and that's before allowing for us being stuck indefinitely with them demanding we notify before they start negotiating and us refusing to notify until we have an outline deal. Hey, we can even keep blaming Europe for our misfortunes.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on June 28, 2016, 02:25:50 pm

Bloke I work with who has been a regional political adviser for decades remains confident that Brexit won't ultimately happen. He can see a situation where it takes around three months or so for the dust to settle and new political leaders to be appointed, by which time the high-emotion stuff of the past few days will have calmed and what will have emerged is that Brexit is ultimately going to be unworkable and the Leave side have no clear plan on how it can be implemented. At that point, he suspects Parliament may move to dismiss it on those grounds.



Which would leave us with the status quo and a large proportion of the population even angrier than they were before. I'm firmly of the opinion that the battle to stay in the EU has been lost, even if it may prove to be a pyrrhic victory for the Leave camp. The issue is what happens next. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but was it really a good idea to go into a referendum on such a big issue with no clear plan for what would follow? Obviously the answer is no, but these are the cards we have been dealt by Mr Cameron.
Cameron won the recent general election through divide and conquer tactics and it was pretty clear that something along these lines was going to happen (I actually had a lengthy whatsapp exchange with a political editor in Malaysia which forecast all of this), but the speed of the collapse is what is really shocking.
Not only will Cameron go down in history as the PM who took us out of the EU, not only will he likely go down as the PM who broke up the UK, but he has managed to eclipse the John Major government as being the most incompetent in history, which is the biggest achievement of all.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Seán on June 28, 2016, 02:27:13 pm

Bloke I work with who has been a regional political adviser for decades remains confident that Brexit won't ultimately happen. He can see a situation where it takes around three months or so for the dust to settle and new political leaders to be appointed, by which time the high-emotion stuff of the past few days will have calmed and what will have emerged is that Brexit is ultimately going to be unworkable and the Leave side have no clear plan on how it can be implemented. At that point, he suspects Parliament may move to dismiss it on those grounds.

Quite where that would leave us with our European neighbours is anyone's guess. I can't share his optimism unfortunately, but it at least gives me something to cling to - however unlikely.

This would also be amusing if true...

http://indy100.independent.co.uk/article/people-are-really-really-hoping-this-theory-about-david-cameron-and-brexit-is-true--bJhqBql0VZ


I haven't your link, or spoken to the bloke you work with, but yes. This is kind of where in coming from.

I still think it will leave a nasty taste for some years to come, however, and might well serve to strengthen the reserve and resolve of certain quarters of leave-ists, i.e. the f*ck-knuckle "all  foreigners are b@stards, no surrender rule Britannia, I want my country back" bollockwads, which of course can't be a good thing, but all out leave?  I can't see it. Not with the upheaval, the back tracking and instant resignations.

I might even start paying attention to NG2 a bit more, now.

Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Chicago on June 28, 2016, 02:28:41 pm

Yes you are, this had f*ck all to do with Brexit - understand that? f*ck ALL TO DO WITH BREXIT, yet you ranted on like a f*cking loon as Euro this that and the other giving links to the HoL etc etc.



You are avoiding the question.  Tricky asked for your understanding on the ramifications of Brexit and why you voted out and you are blathering about Iceland.  I didn't see JP's question all I have seen is Tricky trying to engage with you about the social/ political and economic situation as it stands.  You being angry about it, suggests that you don't have an answer.  I am not ganging up on you, I am genuinely interested in your answer.


Chicago: Hiding in plain sight.  
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: tricky on June 28, 2016, 02:33:20 pm

Yes you are, this had f*ck all to do with Brexit - understand that? f*ck ALL TO DO WITH BREXIT, yet you ranted on like a f*cking loon as Euro this that and the other giving links to the HoL etc etc.


....man you don't half project dim. I'm asking you your understanding and thoughts on the question of the EU referendum, the impact of that, the veracity of the basis on which a winning vote was achieved, and the likelihood of anything resembling what people thought they were voting for being achieved.

If you can't, and you've only got wind, then you are behaving like a dickhead.  I'm not interested in your gripes with other people.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Rich B on June 28, 2016, 02:37:29 pm


You are avoiding the question.  Tricky asked for your understanding on the ramifications of Brexit and why you voted out and you are blathering about Iceland.  I didn't see JP's question all I have seen is Tricky trying to engage with you about the social/ political and economic situation as it stands.  You being angry about it, suggests that you don't have an answer.  I am not ganging up on you, I am genuinely interested in your answer.


Chicago: Hiding in plain sight.

Whilst we are having an insulting party, f*ck off you wannabe yank, you don't live here so forfeited your right to an opinion on Brexit so mind your own f*cking business.

He stuck his nose into a response from a post from jp which had absolutely f*ck all to do with Brexit
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Rich B on June 28, 2016, 02:39:32 pm

....man you don't half project dim. I'm asking you your understanding and thoughts on the question of the EU referendum, the impact of that, the veracity of the basis on which a winning vote was achieved, and the likelihood of anything resembling what people thought they were voting for being achieved.

If you can't, and you've only got wind, then you are behaving like a dickhead.  I'm not interested in your gripes with other people.

If you are not interested in my gripes with other people then why did you quote a post which was directly that, jeez and you f*cking call me dumb
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: tricky on June 28, 2016, 02:42:17 pm

If you are not interested in my gripes with other people then why did you quote a post which was directly that, jeez and you f*cking call me dumb


I'm calling you a dim dickhead, yes....because still you are generating wind and not talking any substance. I've told you exactly what I'm interested in hearing from you, in this the "This Europe Stuff" thread.  If you genuinely don't have anything we'd better make an arrangement for me to come and fulfil your preference. Or do you only act like a bully when you feel really safe?
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Chicago on June 28, 2016, 02:42:23 pm

Whilst we are having an insulting party, f*ck off you wannabe yank, you don't live here so forfeited your right to an opinion on Brexit so mind your own f*cking business.

He stuck his nose into a response from a post from jp which had absolutely f*ck all to do with Brexit



Yes, yes and yes but you are not answering the question.  Which suggests you don't have an answer so you are just resorting to insulting me.  I mean seriously "DID YOU ORDER THE CODE RED!!!????"....


Chicago: Dual passort holder. 
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on June 28, 2016, 02:42:26 pm

Whilst we are having an insulting party, f*ck off you wannabe yank, you don't live here so forfeited your right to an opinion on Brexit so mind your own f*cking business.



I think the correct term is 'Plastic Yank'.
Sorry, I'll move aside and let the big boys slug it out...
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Chicago on June 28, 2016, 02:45:20 pm


Have you ever eaten the cheese over here (I am sure you have as you lived here too), most of it is made of plastic.

Thank God we can get cheddar imported over here...Hold on?  Can we now?  Fcuked if I know.  Maybe  I will have a two year grace period to horde as much as possible before the chocolate and cheese apocalypse begins.



Chicago: Substantive. 
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Rich B on June 28, 2016, 02:45:48 pm

I'm calling you a dim dickhead, yes....because still you are generating wind and not talking any substance. I've told you exactly what I'm interested in hearing from you, in this the "This Europe Stuff" thread.  If you genuinely don't have anything we'd better make an arrangement for me to come and fulfil your preference. Or do you only act like a bully when you feel really safe?

Right, nice and civil question.
If you wanted my opinion - and that is what it would be, an opinion, then why did you choose to quote the post that  you did, you know, the one that was nothing to do with Brexit?

Oh, and I never ever hide behind a keyboard, if you are calling me out then don't be obtuse just say the words

Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Rich B on June 28, 2016, 02:46:13 pm

I think the correct term is 'Plastic Yank'.
Sorry, I'll move aside and let the big boys slug it out...

Cheers for the correction dude
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Rich B on June 28, 2016, 02:47:27 pm


Yes, yes and yes but you are not answering the question.  Which suggests you don't have an answer so you are just resorting to insulting me.  I mean seriously "DID YOU ORDER THE CODE RED!!!????"....

Chicago: Dual passort holder.


Code Red? must start worrying then in case you ever come back to the mess I have just caused with my single vote
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: tricky on June 28, 2016, 02:48:36 pm


Have you ever eaten the cheese over here (I am sure you have as you lived here too), most of it is made of plastic.

Thank God we can get cheddar imported over here...Hold on?  Can we now?  Fcuked if I know.  Maybe  I will have a two year grace period to horde as much as possible before the chocolate and cheese apocalypse begins.



Chicago: Substantive.


I'm always grateful that you write so concisely and elegantly.  It makes you easy to understand.  Unlike your terrible hybrid accent that sounds like a yeti f*cked a mouthful of gravel.

I need an export arm if I'm going to be able to afford to eat shortly.  Can I send you some twiglets, or something, in exchange for some cold hard green?
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Rich B on June 28, 2016, 02:49:17 pm

So RichB, just why did you vote leave?


I have a quaint old fashioned viewpoint about wanting Britain to be governed by the British and not be interfered with by the EU - or anyone else to be honest.

Sick of the way the European Charter of Fundamental Rights was foisted upon us by the EU

Sick of the uncontrolled immigration policy that creates a situation where people can saunter into this country and claim benefits without having paid a single damn penny in.

Sick of having to cough up £350m a week ( yes I know we get refunds ) and give out to other weaker countries.

Sick of the rigidity and intransigence of the EU - our way or the highway - then they're amazed when we elect to f*ck off and leave them to it.








Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Chicago on June 28, 2016, 02:52:29 pm

Code Red? must start worrying then in case you ever come back to the mess I have just caused with my single vote



Sorry I was being too clever.  It was a line from a Few good men (I assumed you knew that and you might but..) and hey hold on, did you just admit this was a mess?

And again the question remains - why did you vote out.  You are avoiding the question with as much gusto as the Donald who just keeps talking until he thinks people aren't paying attention anymore.


Chicago: Invested. 


PS.  Just saw your answer.  I am going to try and send you 15 minutes of the John Oliver show which debunked most if not all of the above.  The 350 million figure is absolute bollocks and it seems the the EU are keeping out a sh!t load of migrants in Calais from trying to get to britain.  Yes, there are concerns that eastern europeans are moving to the UK for benefits but most are genuinely moving for work.  Most people in this country claiming benefits are actually white and British.   Moving to the states really wasn't a rational move for me because I was never allowed any benefits at all if it all went tits up.  In fact I had to pay to work here for a while.  so I am in the camp where I think that people move for a better life not to free load.  
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Rich B on June 28, 2016, 02:54:46 pm


Sorry I was being too clever.  It was a line from a Few good men (I assumed you knew that and you might but..) and hey hold on, did you just admit this was a mess?

And again the question remains - why did you vote out.  You are avoiding the question with as much gusto as the Donald who just keeps talking until he thinks people aren't paying attention anymore.


Chicago: Invested.


Yes I know where it was from and it was also a violent "rule" hence my comment and if you look above your post above then you will see that I have answered.

Of course its a mess, I singlehandedly caused it didn't you know, oh do keep up
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Nottingham Florist on June 28, 2016, 03:04:00 pm

I have a quaint old fashioned viewpoint about wanting Britain to be governed by the British and not be interfered with by the EU - or anyone else to be honest.

Sick of the way the European Charter of Fundamental Rights was foisted upon us by the EU


Didn't we sign up for it when our democratically elected government signed the Lisbon Treaty?

Quote


Sick of the uncontrolled immigration policy that creates a situation where people can saunter into this country and claim benefits without having paid a single damn penny in.


Hadn't this been stopped through Cameron's negotiations?
Quote


Sick of having to cough up £350m a week ( yes I know we get refunds ) and give out to other weaker countries.


How much do you think we'll have to pay to access the single market after Brexit?
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: JimShady on June 28, 2016, 03:13:10 pm
On that last point, not to mention all the other costs. We've already lost a sh!t load of money through the fall in the pound (which may recover, but to it's previous level? Seems unlikely in the next 40-50 years to me). How much do we reckon building a wall in Ireland is going to cost? And border controls/a new camp for the Calais situation? Hell, I bet that the lawyers needed to sort out all of our laws will cost £350m a day...... (I'm being silly on that last point, but you get my drift)
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Rich B on June 28, 2016, 03:23:38 pm

On that last point, not to mention all the other costs. We've already lost a sh!t load of money through the fall in the pound (which may recover, but to it's previous level? Seems unlikely in the next 40-50 years to me). How much do we reckon building a wall in Ireland is going to cost? And border controls/a new camp for the Calais situation? Hell, I bet that the lawyers needed to sort out all of our laws will cost £350m a day...... (I'm being silly on that last point, but you get my drift)


I was asked for an opinion....
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: DaveM on June 28, 2016, 03:26:42 pm

Hadn't this been stopped through Cameron's negotiations?


It had been, had the UK concessions Cameron agreed not been torn up by the EU in light of this Brexit vote (meaning they don't actually happen whilst we wait to trigger Article 50)
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: JimShady on June 28, 2016, 03:27:13 pm
Huh? So does that mean that you disagree we are going to be significantly worse off if we leave the EU? Or, you knew that we would be, but you are fine with that aslong as we control or our destiny (or whatever the catchphrase is).
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: DaveM on June 28, 2016, 03:31:49 pm

I'm firmly of the opinion that the battle to stay in the EU has been lost, even if it may prove to be a pyrrhic victory for the Leave camp.


I'm not at all confident that the battle to stay in the EU has been lost. Until and right up to Article 50 being triggered, I will retain hope that we will not continue blindly heading towards such a destructive fate.

As Ken Clarke said, we vote parliament in to represent the best interests of this country. Lets see how all this shakes out and if we do trigger Article 50 and leave, fair enough - we then move forward.

Quote

Not only will Cameron go down in history as the PM who took us out of the EU, not only will he likely go down as the PM who broke up the UK, but he has managed to eclipse the John Major government as being the most incompetent in history, which is the biggest achievement of all.


So much sensible postage and then pulling out some labour party strap-line at the end.

Yes, Cameron is culpable for misjudging the situation re the referendum. No, he is not solely culpable for the vote being lost. As for his govt, bar the referendum situation being the 'most incompetent' - that is purely a party political view, rather than reality.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: tricky on June 28, 2016, 03:40:01 pm

I have a quaint old fashioned viewpoint about wanting Britain to be governed by the British and not be interfered with by the EU - or anyone else to be honest.


It is.  Parliament is sovereign, as this debacle demonstrates.  Europe can't believe their luck in having the chance to get rid of the irritating, vetoing, curmudgeonly b@stards that are the UK.  Trouble is, unless parliament proceeds, they can't.  Nor can they take away our trading rights, or our banking passport.  If we leave they can.  If we want to trade with the EU, and keep (admittedly likely to be a small fraction) of our financial services industry we will have to sign an agreement to be subject to all EU trading legislation, and accept free movement of people (as well as goods - they are totally inseparable, or at least that's what the EU position will be, and nobody can change that).

Pretty much the only thing that will change is that we wont have a place at the decision making table, and we wont get to be irritating, vetoing, curmudgeonly b@stards. The choice we have under your wish is that we pay more, for even less, or we totally opt out and can't trade and lose more of our financial services market.  Possibly most of it.

Either way we go massively backwards.

Which of those do you want?

Sick of the way the European Charter of Fundamental Rights was foisted upon us by the EU


What specifically don't you like that is contained within it? What that's within it do you imagine that the UK wont enact if it has to write all it's own laws as part of this scorched middle-earth that you hanker after.

Do you genuinely believe that the legislative framework that a right wing-euro sceptic government seeks to enact will favour the rights of the individual, over the ability for business to be fleet of foot and compete on a lower cost base against all the added hurdles they have.

Is your intention to subvert individual rights below businesses needs? That's pretty much the choice that you have here....are you favouring business and wanting individual's rights to be inferior to the rest of the western worlds developed nations? Our economy is going to suffer....services and infrastructure are going to suffer, you are telling me that you preference is that workers wages and rights need to suffer to pay for this utopia?


Sick of the uncontrolled immigration policy that creates a situation where people can saunter into this country and claim benefits without having paid a single damn penny in.


I hope you realise that's not in any way a reasonable description of how the benefits system works. I hope you realise that by voting 'leave' you invalidated a deal that enshrined exactly that principle for a set period. 

I hope that you realise that the returning aged Costa Del Sol brigade will offset any benefits from the young vibrant, tax paying motivated economic migrants that you don't seem to value?

I understand why you think what you do, but it's a massive misreading of reality.  You were told that, I know....but will you now listen to the lying f*cks who told you that, who are now saying that immigration can't be brought down, and more than ever we will need cheap skilled labour from abroad? Od do you only listen when you hear what you want to?

Sick of having to cough up £350m a week ( yes I know we get refunds ) and give out to other weaker countries.


We don't....that amount never leaves UK PLC. The net amount is about £5.7 billion a year. It's a drop in the ocean compared to the amount we have lost from UK GDP and tax take and will continue to lose for years to come. Giving out to weaker countries is civilised, and in our best interests.  Firstly it has been a huge factor in achieving peace in northern Ireland (a bloody and expensive business). Secondly elevated economies in trading partners leads to increased market capitalisation, and increased standards of living. It reduces the numbers of starving foreigners trying to economically invade your territory - note that the current immigrant crisis is actually predominantly from outside the EU borders, not from inside the EU.  Even your former overlords admit that we need skilled immigrant labour to run our economy.

Sick of the rigidity and intransigence of the EU - our way or the highway - then they're amazed when we elect to f*ck off and leave them to it.


They are not intransigent.  There is a wider EU that the UK is a part of, has significant power in (as much as any other country), and helps steer the direction of. It's irritating to them that we hinder the progress that they can make to some of their wider views...without us the EU will probably evolve in a different way.

There is no our way or the highway....there is negotiation, and we hold a power of veto.  If we are outside the EU we hold no cards.

You have been totally mugged. Whatever happens, leaving the EU or otherwise, you are not going to get a fraction of what you think you are.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Russ on June 28, 2016, 03:43:06 pm

Didn't we sign up for it when our democratically elected government signed the Lisbon Treaty?


Not only that, we also negotiated an exemption that essentially says that we're fine with it unless there are bits we don't like, in which case British law takes precedence and the ECJ won't hear a case where British law and the Charter are in conflict. So in essence, absolutely nothing has been foisted upon Britain by the EU.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Simon. Not Steve or Nazimon on June 28, 2016, 03:44:48 pm

Yes, Cameron is culpable for misjudging the situation re the referendum. No, he is not solely culpable for the vote being lost. As for his govt, bar the referendum situation being the 'most incompetent' - that is purely a party political view, rather than reality.


He called a referendum where one outcome potentially leads to the destruction of his party, puts the country into a massive recession and the break up of a union that's stood for 300 years.

That is massively incompetent and outweighs any good he may have done.

If he called a referendum on launching nuclear strikes on the UK's 5 biggest cities and "yes" won against project fear, you wouldn't take the rest of his record into account in weighing up legacy.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Richoriginal on June 28, 2016, 03:44:55 pm

I have a quaint old fashioned viewpoint about wanting Britain to be governed by the British and not be interfered with by the EU - or anyone else to be honest.



Thanks for answering.


Sick of the way the European Charter of Fundamental Rights was foisted upon us by the EU


You know we have a protocol that excludes us from that? Us and the Polish. In detail, it says: "Charter does not extend the ability of the Court of Justice of the European Union, or any court or tribunal of Poland or of the United Kingdom, to find that the laws, regulations or administrative provisions, practices or actions of Poland or of the United Kingdom are inconsistent with the fundamental rights, freedoms and principles that it reaffirms."

So, I think you might have been missinformed there.


Sick of the uncontrolled immigration policy that creates a situation where people can saunter into this country and claim benefits without having paid a single damn penny in.


You know this is only European members right? And it works both ways. I work in Europe a lot (well, I did...) and I benifitted from being able to 'saunter into Germany" etc and use their infrastrucure, because I'd paid my taxes into the uk.

If you're talking about refugees and immigrants from countries outside the EU, then we have controls and this referendum wasn't about that.


Sick of having to cough up £350m a week ( yes I know we get refunds ) and give out to other weaker countries.


This has been so widely debunked as a massive lie so often. lets not go into it again.


Sick of the rigidity and intransigence of the EU - our way or the highway - then they're amazed when we elect to f*ck off and leave them to it.


Rigity and intransigence - sounds terrible. Can you give any examples? I don't know of any. In fact, as previously stated me working in the EU is so much easier in terms of paperwork and red tape than when I work in the USA. In the EU it's just one piece of paper I have to submit to the tax office, in the USA, it's visa's and interviews and application forms and dealing with the IRS, getting a US Social Security number... on and on.
So in my experience, working and travelling in the EU is easy. I'd love to hear how it's rigid.

So it seems to me, the only reason you have left is a "quaint old fashioned view point". I didn't have you down as such an old softy romantic, but live and learn.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Rich B on June 28, 2016, 03:45:05 pm
f*ck me, this is like being under the grill or on the BBC Hard Talk.

Sorry I voted Leave now as I have singlehandedly brought the country to its knees according to you lot.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Chicago on June 28, 2016, 03:48:11 pm
Sorry I had work to do...anyway Rich B

I amended my post and no-one is saying it's just you at fault.  I just wanted to see if you understood the situation and the implications.  There is no plan B and I believe that this was all a political power play to strengthen for the elections to come and backfired supremely.  And being British or a citizen of the world doesn't allow me to have an opinion?  Mmm, dangerous talk.  So glad it's easy to debate someone who already believes that the other person doesn't matter because it doesn't affect them.  It does.  This has world wide implications and also I was always planning on coming home to retire.  Scotland actually held and attraction for me but because of you (see what I did there?) and your fellow we hate Johnny Foreigner voters, I may have to get a passport to go there now.  Fcuking great!  (I am JP is mightily relieved). 

What's interesting is that all these debates are raging all over the country and in some instances the world and I see the remain camp put in facts and implications I have yet to really have an exit-er tell me what the plan is from their side?

So what's the plan Stan?


Chicago: Sub human apparently. 
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Chicago on June 28, 2016, 03:51:19 pm

I'm always grateful that you write so concisely and elegantly.  It makes you easy to understand.  Unlike your terrible hybrid accent that sounds like a yeti f*cked a mouthful of gravel.

I need an export arm if I'm going to be able to afford to eat shortly.  Can I send you some twiglets, or something, in exchange for some cold hard green?


I know you were being grumpy that I tried to inject some humour into the discussion whilst trying to make a point but I have to say that made me laugh out loud at work.  Well done sir.  I can take a joke. (Even if you meant it.)

Chicago: linguist. 
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: tricky on June 28, 2016, 03:52:20 pm

f*ck me, this is like being under the grill or on the BBC Hard Talk.

Sorry I voted Leave now as I have singlehandedly brought the country to its knees according to you lot.


Okay, if you can't rebut factual arguments, how about addressing this paradoxical question for us?

The EU wants us to activate article 50 and begin the process for exiting the EU immediately. Parliament is sovereign, it is (it seems) in no rush to do so, and there is a widening consensus (even amongst Brexiteers) that we should take time to evaluate the options and impact on the UK before determining the appropriate way forward for the British people.

Should we accede to the EU, or maintain the primacy of our sovereign parliamentary democracy, and do what's right for us?
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Richoriginal on June 28, 2016, 03:54:38 pm

f*ck me, this is like being under the grill or on the BBC Hard Talk.

Sorry I voted Leave now as I have singlehandedly brought the country to its knees according to you lot.


I'm sorry you voted leave. No, you haven't brought the country to it's knees singlehandedly (a romantic and a drama queen, the things we're learning about RichB today) but you have been emotionally mugged by a self serving liar. Which is a shame.

Why am annoyed about it and at people like yourselves? Because you have made my life harder. Poorer. But at least I got the chance to work and travel all over Europe. Enriched my life. Experienced all those things. The fact you've f*cked it up for my child, and denied her those great opportunities I had, now that makes me angry. And for what? "A quaint old fashioned viewpoint about wanting Britain to be governed by the British".

You've been mugged.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Russ on June 28, 2016, 04:02:14 pm
I'll tell you what's really grinding my gears is people saying things like "look, you're just being a bad loser, let's just move on and work together on this" and "it's none of your business which way I voted". Like, no. If you voted to Leave then you played your part in causing the country's greatest economic and constitutional crisis in living memory, and you have a responsibility to explain why you did it and what you're going to do about it. If you want to play a part in democracy then you absolutely have to take your share of owning the responsibilities. This wasn't the f*cking X Factor winner you voted for.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: garf on June 28, 2016, 04:07:34 pm
I don't see the point in dissecting RichB's position. It's the same as that of about 51% of the country and it's blatantly obvious that by any objective analysis it's largely nonsense. 

What matters of course is that we BELIEVE and PULL TOGETHER  and make Britain GREAT again.

Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Richoriginal on June 28, 2016, 04:08:22 pm

I'll tell you what's really grinding my gears is people saying things like "look, you're just being a bad loser, let's just move on and work together on this" and "it's none of your business which way I voted". Like, no. If you voted to Leave then you played your part in causing the country's greatest economic and constitutional crisis in living memory, and you have a responsibility to explain why you did it and what you're going to do about it. If you want to play a part in democracy then you absolutely have to take your share of owning the responsibilities. This wasn't the f*cking X Factor winner you voted for.


Totally. Had this argument with my Mum this morning. She was "well, we've just got to get on with it". No we haven't. We can still protest, argue and make life as difficult as possible for the "leave" leaders. Who ever the f*ck they are. (Gove and Boris seem to be keeping a very low profile....)

Write to your MP. Ask him/her that when they have to vote to reppeal the EU act (which might have to happen before even envoking Article 50) that they vote no. And as so many MP's voted to remain, this could be the moment to stop all this.

A better explanation is here: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/27/stop-brexit-mp-vote-referendum-members-parliament-act-europe
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: garf on June 28, 2016, 04:12:32 pm

Totally. Had this argument with my Mum this morning. She was "well, we've just got to get on with it". No we haven't. We can still protest, argue and make life as difficult as possible for the "leave" leaders. Who ever the f*ck they are. (Gove and Boris seem to be keeping a very low profile....)

Write to your MP. Ask him/her that when they have to vote to reppeal the EU act (which might have to happen before even envoking Article 50) that they vote no. And as so many MP's voted to remain, this could be the moment to stop all this.

A better explanation is here: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/27/stop-brexit-mp-vote-referendum-members-parliament-act-europe


No offense intended to your Mum, but in general I find that the people saying "just get on with it" are the sort of people that things, for the most part happen to; not because of.
So getting on with it really means doing nothing and letting others sort out their sh!t.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: tricky on June 28, 2016, 04:16:45 pm
.....A better explanation is here: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/27/stop-brexit-mp-vote-referendum-members-parliament-act-europe


This bit bothered me.

Quote
The only way forward now depends on the courage, intelligence and conscience of your local MP.


About MP's in general, not about my MP. Sir Kenneth of the Crepe Soles is as sound as a pound, err, as it were.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Richoriginal on June 28, 2016, 04:16:58 pm

No offense intended to your Mum, but in general I find that the people saying "just get on with it" are the sort of people that things, for the most part happen to; not because of.
So getting on with it really means doing nothing and letting others sort out their sh!t.


oh totally true.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Rich B on June 28, 2016, 04:21:58 pm

Okay, if you can't rebut factual arguments, how about addressing this paradoxical question for us?

The EU wants us to activate article 50 and begin the process for exiting the EU immediately. Parliament is sovereign, it is (it seems) in no rush to do so, and there is a widening consensus (even amongst Brexiteers) that we should take time to evaluate the options and impact on the UK before determining the appropriate way forward for the British people.

Should we accede to the EU, or maintain the primacy of our sovereign parliamentary democracy, and do what's right for us?

Is this accede to the rigid and intransigent EU or is this a different one.

Look, no-one expected the Leave vote to carry. Best I hoped for was a narrow loss, narrow enough to wake the b@stards up.

They ignored the UKIP upsurge at the last election when people were bound by their party ties and arrogantly used Project Fear, bollocks and lies to try and browbeat the population. Ally that with c*nts Eddie Izzard and Geldof preaching down to us - even f*cking Beckham stuck his oar in. Why did someone in charge not denounce these c*nts.

But to answer your question, if the EU was modified to be more adaptable and flexible then maybe I would change my viewpoint yes.



Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Rich B on June 28, 2016, 04:26:20 pm
Can't wait to see your reactions when the next country agrees to an exit referendum....
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Chicago on June 28, 2016, 04:38:50 pm


Nobody cares about Denmark...




Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Rich B on June 28, 2016, 04:40:40 pm

They are not intransigent.  There is a wider EU that the UK is a part of, has significant power in (as much as any other country), and helps steer the direction of. It's irritating to them that we hinder the progress that they can make to some of their wider views...without us the EU will probably evolve in a different way.

You would have thought that they would have been trying to keep us in if we are so valuable so why not have informal talks to see if there is a way around it.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36644211


Mr Juncker went on to say he was banning any informal and secretive negotiations on Britain's departure from the EU.

He said there will be no secret meetings between UK, national governments and commissioners in the corridors. "I ban that."

Rigid and intransigent???
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Simon. Not Steve or Nazimon on June 28, 2016, 04:44:57 pm

Can't wait to see your reactions when the next country agrees to an exit referendum....


Pretty sure that's a UKIP fantasy. After this no other government is going to take the risk of humouring their right wing extremists.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Rich B on June 28, 2016, 04:46:24 pm

Pretty sure that's a UKIP fantasy. After this no other government is going to take the risk of humouring their right wing extremists.


Mmmmm, are you going to look silly IF it happens.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Simon. Not Steve or Nazimon on June 28, 2016, 04:48:09 pm

Mmmmm, are you going to look silly IF it happens.


Only as silly as I have after every opinion I've expressed on here that turned out to be bollocks.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Russ on June 28, 2016, 04:49:23 pm

You would have thought that they would have been trying to keep us in if we are so valuable so why not have informal talks to see if there is a way around it.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36644211


I think that you, like many exiters, are guilty of overestimating the UK's importance to the EU and underestimating the EU's importance to the UK.

As yet neither you nor any of the talking heads have come up with a single compelling argument as to how life in the UK will improve in any measurable way once exit from the EU is achieved. The EU has no interest, vested or otherwise, in making things easy for the UK, it will quite rightly act entirely in its own interest. This will include such things as aggressively pursuing trade agreements with the US and Canada, incentive schemes to attract global investors away from the UK and into its member states, and policies designed to make it more difficult for British business to trade in the EU against domestic competitors.

You're about to learn how not very Great Britain really is. It's a debt laden smallish market with a declining economy, no natural resources and an impending brain drain.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Russ on June 28, 2016, 04:50:44 pm

Pretty sure that's a UKIP fantasy. After this no other government is going to take the risk of humouring their right wing extremists.


Given the mess that the UK is in with this, and given most other EU member states have the much greater complexity of being part of the single currency, I can't see there being much appetite for it other than from the far right.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Guru on June 28, 2016, 05:02:11 pm

I think that you, like many exiters, are guilty of overestimating the UK's importance to the EU and underestimating the EU's importance to the UK.

As yet neither you nor any of the talking heads have come up with a single compelling argument as to how life in the UK will improve in any measurable way once exit from the EU is achieved. The EU has no interest, vested or otherwise, in making things easy for the UK, it will quite rightly act entirely in its own interest. This will include such things as aggressively pursuing trade agreements with the US and Canada, incentive schemes to attract global investors away from the UK and into its member states, and policies designed to make it more difficult for British business to trade in the EU against domestic competitors.

You're about to learn how not very Great Britain really is. It's a debt laden smallish market with a declining economy, no natural resources and an impending brain drain.


And guess how we have previously death with the brain drain, coupled with the reduction of people getting technically and vocationally trained?

That's right....immigrants.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: DaveM on June 28, 2016, 05:07:35 pm

Given the mess that the UK is in with this, and given most other EU member states have the much greater complexity of being part of the single currency, I can't see there being much appetite for it other than from the far right.


The only way it would happen is if the EU makes things particularly easy, and gives us great deals to trade.

Hence exactly why it is not in their interests to do so.

As for wanting the UK to trigger Article 50 straight away...this is logical. Our exit will create uncertainty in their markets also, and impact the Eurozone particularly. The sooner they can get rid of us the better.

This is a messy divorce. They want us to move out quickly and not sit around surfing dating sites in our underpants in the living room.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Jeff on June 28, 2016, 05:34:19 pm

This is a messy divorce. They want us to move out quickly and not sit around surfing dating sites in our underpants in the living room.


You have bring everything back to you don't you? Next up; similarities between free migration and murdering prostitutes.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: SWT on June 28, 2016, 05:40:21 pm

You would have thought that they would have been trying to keep us in if we are so valuable so why not have informal talks to see if there is a way around it.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36644211


Mr Juncker went on to say he was banning any informal and secretive negotiations on Britain's departure from the EU.

He said there will be no secret meetings between UK, national governments and commissioners in the corridors. "I ban that."

Rigid and intransigent???


I'm not sure why people thought that the "rigid and intransigent" EU would suddenly become less so if we told them where to stick it.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: DaveM on June 28, 2016, 05:59:35 pm

You have bring everything back to you don't you? Next up; similarities between free migration and murdering prostitutes.


Nothing like me I'm afraid. I don't wear any underwear when surfing dating sites*


* or killing prostitutes
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: DaveM on June 28, 2016, 06:04:05 pm
I see Corbyn is refusing to acknowledge a 'democratic' vote of no confidence in his own party and is carrying on regardless....
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: JimShady on June 28, 2016, 06:06:46 pm
I suspect he feels the people are behind him, just not the MPs. He may be right.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Simon. Not Steve or Nazimon on June 28, 2016, 06:18:36 pm

I see Corbyn is refusing to acknowledge a 'democratic' vote of no confidence in his own party and is carrying on regardless....


He was elected by 250,000. Do the votes of 170 outweigh that?

Answer: Yes. Yes, it does because they are far better informed and actually want to win an election.

But he'll win any leadership election, so they are really in a mess. Well done to Ed Miliband for coming up with it. And he'd probably still have been a better prime minister than Cameron.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Andyp on June 28, 2016, 07:27:16 pm
http://

I'm not sure that he will as there are probably enough people who will switch pragmatically to a candidate who is more likely to win the next election. I hope the fact that Corbin will run will remind the successful candidate that the membership want a change of direction.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: DaveM on June 28, 2016, 07:28:36 pm

He was elected by 250,000. Do the votes of 170 outweigh that?

Answer: Yes. Yes, it does because they are far better informed and actually want to win an election.

But he'll win any leadership election, so they are really in a mess. Well done to Ed Miliband for coming up with it. And he'd probably still have been a better prime minister than Cameron.


He would be a terrible prime minister. However clever the guy may be and whatever attributes he brings to the table - statesman-like gravitas,  charm, leadership or charisma are not included. He looks like a bus driver who has missed his lunch break.

Angela Eagle, after resiging - complained that he didn't respond to texts or calls and whenever Corbyn is asked a question he 'absorbs' it but refuses to answer. Is there any wonder he has so many vying to get rid of him.

If he were to win another leadership election - which I doubt - he will be a leader who may well preside over the complete break up of the Labour Party.

So Cameron misjudging things and inadvertently leading the UK to throw away 40yrs of progress, would be nothing compared to Corbyn throwing away 100+ years of party unity. For those on the left anyway.

Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Jeff on June 28, 2016, 07:35:58 pm
Labour have fell out before, they will regroup and they'll fall out again. This is what happens when you a big group of opinionated clever people.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: JimShady on June 28, 2016, 07:39:37 pm
Think Labour party should split to be honest. Half of them are fake tories anyway.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Loafé on June 28, 2016, 07:50:21 pm
Just saw Farage at the European Parliamant. How have we been so complacent as to let that smug evil c*nt represent our country in Europe for 17 years?

What a f*cking embarrassment. What a f*cking piece of sh!t. Dangerous, evil piece of f*cking sh!t.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: DaveM on June 28, 2016, 07:53:07 pm

Just saw Farage at the European Parliamant. How have we been so complacent as to let that smug evil c*nt represent our country in Europe for 17 years?

What a f*cking embarrassment. What a f*cking piece of sh!t. Dangerous, evil piece of f*cking sh!t.


That was my over-riding feeling at seeing his smug face today....embarrassment. That he felt the need to attend simply so he could rub the MEP's noses in it said everything you need to know about the man.

Am sure many people in other parts of the EU are now basing their decision on what a Brit is like based on THAT c*nt. What a shame.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Andyp on June 28, 2016, 08:08:47 pm

Think Labour party should split to be honest. Half of them are fake tories anyway.


Absolutely, there is a place for fake Tories (sorry Social Democrats ) but it shouldn't be in the Labour Party. Unfortunately until we get pr you get this abomination.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: garf on June 28, 2016, 08:08:54 pm

Am sure many people in other parts of the EU are now basing their decision on what a Brit is like based on THAT c*nt. What a shame.


Based on last week they would be right.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: charlie on June 28, 2016, 08:32:43 pm
As far as I understand this clusterf*ck, a new pm is elected by the Tory party and this person, let's call him Boris, then invokes article 50. Then he calls a general election so he has a mandate to proceed. What happens if he loses that election and we, pissed off with the lies of the leave camp, vote for a Labour Party led by a remain advocate such as Alan Johnson or a breakaway new party led by somebody like him? Do we really think that our new remain-biased pm can negotiate how we leave the EU? Just another example of how none of this has been thought through. By anybody.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Simon. Not Steve or Nazimon on June 28, 2016, 08:36:31 pm

As far as I understand this clusterf*ck, a new pm is elected by the Tory party and this person, let's call him Boris, then invokes article 50. Then he calls a general election so he has a mandate to proceed. What happens if he loses that election and we, pissed off with the lies of the leave camp, vote for a Labour Party led by a remain advocate such as Alan Johnson or a breakaway new party led by somebody like him? Do we really think that our new remain-biased pm can negotiate how we leave the EU? Just another example of how none of this has been thought through. By anybody.



https://medium.com/@carlgardner/for-britains-sake-how-we-can-solve-this-crisis-d4b20492b303#.u86vvejxc
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: DaveM on June 28, 2016, 08:53:48 pm
I just want the runners and riders to sort themselves out for the two big parties, and then I want a general election BEFORE Article 50 is invoked.

I am a Tory voter traditionally, however I cannot stand Boris Johnson right now and would certainly vote for any party who campaigns for remaining in the EU - with the closest to the Conservatives getting the nod. Right now, that looks like it would be the Lib Dems. I doubt this strategy would result in rooting for the winning side, but with the possibility of a hung parliament and a pro-remain coalition, I could live with that.

I do have a question though, which I haven't seen mentioned anywhere but I may have missed it... If the UK triggers Article 50 and the 2yr negotiating period, then is there any allowance to terminate that process before the 2yrs are up?

This is important from the perspective of whether the trigger of Article 50 pre general election would be an irreversible action or not, and how that would then play out in terms of political options.

Now, assuming none of my preferred approach happens, we end up with a Brexit PM who triggers Article 50 and then doesn't call an election, I think they should certainly be a cross-party group working on the negotiations. The whole referendum did not follow party lines, and I don't think the negotiations should either. I've no truck with a PM overseeing things and being the public face, but we need to include the remainers in discussions, and not just Conservative remainers. Again, probably pie in the sky but this is what I'd want to see.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Richoriginal on June 28, 2016, 09:27:01 pm

That was my over-riding feeling at seeing his smug face today....embarrassment. That he felt the need to attend simply so he could rub the MEP's noses in it said everything you need to know about the man.

Am sure many people in other parts of the EU are now basing their decision on what a Brit is like based on THAT c*nt. What a shame.


Of course Farage was going to turn up and rub their noses in it. 17 years he's been waiting to do that.

What I thought was interesting is that Johnson and Gove didn't attend the Brexit debate in the Houses of Parliment yesterday? Why no victory speeches from them?

Wonder if the people voting for Leave feel a little short changed that there has been no "Hooray we won" type celebration, party, people dancing in the fountains at Trafalgar sq etc?

It's almost like they know......
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Richoriginal on June 28, 2016, 09:31:34 pm

As far as I understand this clusterf*ck, a new pm is elected by the Tory party and this person, let's call him Boris, then invokes article 50. Then he calls a general election so he has a mandate to proceed.


Boris doens't think he needs to call a general election....

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/28/boris-johnson-tory-leadership-bid-liz-truss
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: DaveM on June 28, 2016, 09:31:51 pm
I've just written to my MP, for all the good it will do (Nick Boles, Cons)

Never sent a letter or email to westminster before this year - that makes it twice in 2016 now (also emailed one of the Lords about the impending EU Tobacco Product Directive, which may now wind up a moot point)
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: DaveM on June 28, 2016, 09:36:50 pm

Boris doens't think he needs to call a general election....

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/28/boris-johnson-tory-leadership-bid-liz-truss


Well that would win him few friends, not that I imagine he has that many at the moment

I want a general election, and I want a clear statement from each party about their stance on the EU, so that I can vote for that approach.

The next 4-5 years will be about precious little else, so may as well have a Brexit election so we can at least have a say in the path we take
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Russ on June 28, 2016, 10:57:35 pm
Former Belgian PM and current MEP Guy Verhofstadt:

Guy Verhofstadt ‏@GuyVerhofstadt
One positive thing about #brexit: we're ridding ourselves from the biggest waste of the last 17 yrs: Farage's salary
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: JRs Cigarette on June 28, 2016, 11:14:10 pm
Just to give some potential balance,  not every leave voter IS  total uneducated idiot as is largely being portrayed here. In the last few days I've chatted to a former chairman of jp.Morgan,  an ex head of mi6 and  couple of guys I used to work with now retired from the city in their mid 40s.  They really not thick dickheads and have coherent reasons for.voting out.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Russ on June 28, 2016, 11:16:56 pm

coherent reasons for.voting out.


I'd be interested to hear them, as yet no one has presented any. Noodle (you're not allowed your w@nky acute accent any more, it's too European) gave it a valiant try but came up short, and he's a pretty smart guy.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Russ on June 28, 2016, 11:28:10 pm
Sky News Newsdesk ‏@SkyNewsBreak
Chancellor George Osborne says taxes will need to be raised and public spending cut following the UK's vote to leave the EU

This can't be right, surely the whole point of this was to save on all that wasted money being sent to build gold houses for Romanian beggar children or something?
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Richoriginal on June 28, 2016, 11:39:40 pm

Just to give some potential balance,  not every leave voter IS  total uneducated idiot as is largely being portrayed here. In the last few days I've chatted to a former chairman of jp.Morgan,  an ex head of mi6 and  couple of guys I used to work with now retired from the city in their mid 40s.  They really not thick dickheads and have coherent reasons for.voting out.


I think being a chairman of jp morgan, ex head of MI6, and some guys who retired in their 40's doesn't exclude them from being a dickhead.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Richoriginal on June 28, 2016, 11:56:53 pm

Sky News Newsdesk ‏@SkyNewsBreak
Chancellor George Osborne says taxes will need to be raised and public spending cut following the UK's vote to leave the EU

This can't be right, surely the whole point of this was to save on all that wasted money being sent to build gold houses for Romanian beggar children or something?


This Tory government were obsessed with retaining its triple A rating, which was what the austerity measures and public spending cuts over the past six years has been all about.

Gone in two days.

Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Dave Rave on June 29, 2016, 12:01:57 am
Just made a repeat order of Spanish wine from ebuywines.com. It cost me £11 more than last time due to the exchange rate. This is officially a f*cking disaster. I dread to think what my next beerofbelgium.com order will cost.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: tricky on June 29, 2016, 12:10:41 am
There is something good come of brexit. I now know there is a beerofbelgium.com.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Dave Rave on June 29, 2016, 12:17:35 am
You mean you didn't know? I think I get bonus loyalty points for signing up a friend.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Dave Rave on June 29, 2016, 12:22:38 am
Balls. Apparently not. Anyway, here you go.
http://www.beerofbelgium.com/en/?gclid=CNPZxNST5soCFa0V0wodflwPYQ

They are the cheapest website I've found for charging by the bottle. Their 'thing' is that they charge delivery per box, which can hold 40 bottles. So don't order less than that.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: tricky on June 29, 2016, 12:27:45 am

You mean you didn't know? I think I get bonus loyalty points for signing up a friend.


They don't seem to be any good to me. No geuze lambics. Belgiuminabox seems better.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: DaveM on June 29, 2016, 12:52:37 am
I should ask my dad what he uses, as his garage is full of belgian beer (he lived there for over 15yrs)

Of course, for any of this beer and wine buying malarky, post-Brexit it will be subject to duty free allowances - although that only really applies if you buy a lot of it (like my dad)
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Jeff on June 29, 2016, 07:22:53 am
Does this mean the return of the Calais beer run?
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Lessred on June 29, 2016, 10:38:54 am

I should ask my dad what he uses, as his garage is full of belgian beer (he lived there for over 15yrs)

Of course, for any of this beer and wine buying malarky, post-Brexit it will be subject to duty free allowances - although that only really applies if you buy a lot of it (like my dad)


Was he an unelected bureaucrat?
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on June 29, 2016, 11:17:52 am



You're about to learn how not very Great Britain really is. It's a debt laden smallish market with a declining economy, no natural resources and an impending brain drain.


Including the fact that foreign investors may not find UK debt so attractive (http://www.economicshelp.org/blog/2215/readers-questions/uk-debt-held-by-oversees-investors/).
There has been a rush to UK gilts as a 'safe haven' in the immediate aftermath of the vote. However, there are two main problems that I can see:
1. If the outlook for the Pound is negative this will deter foreign buyers
2. Many institutional investors have rules about the quality of debt they buy; a credit rating downgrade requires the removal of some of the UK debt from their portfolio.

The real damage to a country is done not through a falling stock market or necessarily a currency (although it doesn't help); the bond market is the real killer and the fact that it has been in a multi-year bull run means that the price of debt can only go down, which means the interest rates go up. If we say that 10% of the foreign demand dries up, and another 10% is removed by institutions then that removes 20% of the demand; the only way to get buyers is for the interest offered to rise in order to tempt buyers. Of course, the other option is for the BoE to print some money to buy the debt and keep prices low.

When I hear Osborne saying that the economy is in a strong enough position to withstand the Exit vote, I find myself wondering if he's ever looked at an economic textbook. Interest rates at 0.5% doesn't leave much room for interest rate cuts. An economy saddled with public and private debt is in no position to absorb more costs.
The BoE has very little room to manoeuvre on interest rates (and even then cutting to zero will have next to no effect) and will have to print some more money (or QE as the white propaganda puts it) to keep the economy afloat.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on June 29, 2016, 11:19:21 am
Of course, stupid me; my economics is as bad as Osborne's; we can just use the £350m a week we save from the EU. So how do we fund the NHS?
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on June 29, 2016, 11:24:51 am

He called a referendum where one outcome potentially leads to the destruction of his party, puts the country into a massive recession and the break up of a union that's stood for 300 years.

That is massively incompetent and outweighs any good he may have done.



^This.
Does anyone remember Chamberlain for anything other than appeasement?
Does anyone remember Lord North (if you've ever even heard of him before!) for anything other than losing the American colonies?
The Major government for Black Wednesday and sleaze?

All three achieved other things during their premiership; they are only remembered for one thing though.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on June 29, 2016, 11:29:05 am
On the question of legal costs for Leaving, the answer is pretty high. The calls to my wife started coming in on Friday; she's currently talking to a client who is debating investing in Romania rather than Britain as they are unsure of the access they will have to the EU from the UK. Oh the irony! Will we have to start going to Romania to get work? Of course, we won't be able to because we won't have the right to work there.
As the uncertainty drags on, future investment will be curtailed as companies do not know what sort of access they will get to the EU from Britain. So not only do we face the prospect of losing existing jobs, we also will lose jobs from future investment.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on June 29, 2016, 11:31:11 am
I should add a third point on the debt question:
3. Companies headquartered in a country cannot have a credit rating higher than the country in which they are based. So by downgrading the UK's debt the ratings agencies have also downgraded every company in the country.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Simon. Not Steve or Nazimon on June 29, 2016, 11:57:15 am


When I hear Osborne saying that the economy is in a strong enough position to withstand the Exit vote, I find myself wondering if he's ever looked at an economic textbook. Interest rates at 0.5% doesn't leave much room for interest rate cuts. An economy saddled with public and private debt is in no position to absorb more costs.
The BoE has very little room to manoeuvre on interest rates (and even then cutting to zero will have next to no effect) and will have to print some more money (or QE as the white propaganda puts it) to keep the economy afloat.


I think you have to cut Osborne some slack there. He can hardly say anything else. What would the response be if his statement was "we're f*cked, buy tents and baked beans". He has to try to make the crash as soft as possible.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on June 29, 2016, 12:00:40 pm

I think you have to cut Osborne some slack there. He can hardly say anything else. What would the response be if his statement was "we're f*cked, buy tents and baked beans". He has to try to make the crash as soft as possible.


The markets know this anyway, so it's a moot point. I've always questioned his knowledge of economics since he compared the finances of a nation to that of a household; we all know where simple answers to complex problems leads...
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Simon. Not Steve or Nazimon on June 29, 2016, 12:02:27 pm

The markets know this anyway, so it's a moot point. I've always questioned his knowledge of economics since he compared the finances of a nation to that of a household; we all know where simple answers to complex problems leads...


That's a Thatcherite callback to please the party, isn't it?
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Richoriginal on June 29, 2016, 12:08:54 pm
This is taken from Ben Judah's twitter feed (@b_judah):
Merkel and Brussels have outright already refused an EEA+ agreement that gives UK migration control, passporting and single market access.
What is passporting? All banks registered in UK have a "passport" that allows them to do business with whole EU. The City depends on it.
Base case is Berlin and Brussels plan to insist on an EEA- (i.e. a worse deal than Norway) that excludes passporting, migration controls.
This would however allow services to continue to have access to the singoe market. But not financial services. Mass migration continues.
This is formal offer. But Paris is planning a turn of cynical brilliance - that could at a stroke smite London and restore Paris to glory.
France cynicallly intends to offer Britain an EEA- that excludes passporting, but givs them a migration cap, and single market access.
This is a brilliant move: "you get less Poles, but we want your banks." It would be in France's interests to encourage UK out to get banks.
This would leave some stuff shirt like Crabb in a disastrous position: Paris and Berlin would have handed him a deal only "bad for bankers."
But the cynical French deal would be exactly the kind of cap migration, free movement for us and single market deal that the public want.
The next Tory muchkin leader would then be a hideous position: have his tax base slasshed at by loss of banks as his voters rejoice.
Paris and Frankfurt would emerge as enormous winners by ending passporting. Hugely boosting popularity of French and German leadership.
British public will be left moronically clapping the huge triumph of a few less Poles and the punishment for "bankers" and tax base slashed.
City analysts I met look with unbrindled distain on a Tory leadership class they think are simply muppets. No clue what's about to hit them.
How will EU divy up the City of London? This is base-case: Euro-clearing to Frankfurt and rest to Paris, Amsterdam to avoid #Frexit, #Nexit.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Vennox on June 29, 2016, 12:17:32 pm
I dont know If it's been mentioned already but Norway (I have been told) pay 90% of what their contributions would be if they were a full member for their trade deal with the EU.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Seán on June 29, 2016, 12:18:55 pm

^This.
Does anyone remember Chamberlain for anything other than appeasement?
Does anyone remember Lord North (if you've ever even heard of him before!) for anything other than losing the American colonies?
The Major government for Black Wednesday and sleaze?

All three achieved other things during their premiership; they are only remembered for one thing though.


In the of balance; Major is also remembered for a shagging Edwina. Even if it only did come out (ahem) a little while later. Still, eew..

Similarly Blair is remembered for being a guning poster boy riding on the coat tails of Britpop as much as he for being a gurning war criminal getting bumf*cked by dubya. The ex President, I mean, not the deceased Talkbacker. At least in my mind. One is, I suppose, arguably more damming than the other.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on June 29, 2016, 12:22:54 pm


The next Tory muchkin leader would then be a hideous position: have his tax base slashed at by loss of banks as his voters rejoice.



There are two rules by which a Tory government should be run:
1. Keep the city happy
2. Maintain the status quo

Can't see the core support in the South seeing either of those being a success.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: tricky on June 29, 2016, 12:25:50 pm
Which is what I've been saying.  The reason the EU want us to trigger article 50 is because we lose control. Then they can f*ck us about for two years, and not agree any form of deal with us, or offer us a deal that essentially guarantees that they take our financial services industry.  Be aware, that's what they want.  It's pretty much all we have.

They could do without us being in EU, because we are a pain in the arse. They absolutely want our financial services industry re-deployed to europe.  The banks will piss off without a thought.

Over my lifetime tory governments have squeezed out heavy industry and manufacturing, sold off public utilities and reduced investment in infrastructure and services, and produced a regulatory framework that gives business pre-eminence over the people of the UK.  They have now exposed us to a potentially catastrophic clear out of the strategy that they bet the farm on.

It's staggering.

Some f*cker had better get a grip and find a way out of this without us leaving the EU.  In all honesty we'd have been better being invaded by Russia than that.

If we leave, and Europe take our financial services industry (and they will) it's game over for us as a first world economy.


I dont know If it's been mentioned already but Norway (I have been told) pay 90% of what their contributions would be if they were a full member for their trade deal with the EU.


And we would lose our negotiated rebate.  That would be a best case scenario.  We wont be getting best case, for us, out of this.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Richoriginal on June 29, 2016, 01:41:28 pm
"Leaders made it crystal clear that access to the single market requires acceptance of all four freedoms - including freedom of movement. There will be no single market a la carte." (Donald Tusk)

So Boris, that's one of the promises you made today blown up. Now what?

Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Simon. Not Steve or Nazimon on June 29, 2016, 02:44:39 pm

"Leaders made it crystal clear that access to the single market requires acceptance of all four freedoms - including freedom of movement. There will be no single market a la carte." (Donald Tusk)

So Boris, that's one of the promises you made today blown up. Now what?




I'm sure he'd say that's a negotiating position. The two sides have laid out their positions, now they need to come up with a compromise.

Best case for Boris now is that he can get some kind of deal within the EEA that has some limit on freedom of movement (probably along the same lines as Cameron got, of delaying benefits) that he can present as a great victory, we can all carry on with our lives and the economy doesn't suffer too much.

Nightmare scenario is that he can't get that deal, won't back down and leaves without membership of the EEA (but pretends the fact our businesses can sell into Europe means we are in the single market).

Worst case for him is that he can't get that deal and accepts that he has to do the best thing for the country and withdraw/not submit article 50 (assuming withdrawal is possible).

(All that assumes Boris wins the Tory leadership but about the same applies to anyone else - May would look less foolish if it was option 3.)
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Russ on June 29, 2016, 02:47:24 pm

(May would look less foolish if it was option 3.)


But would face revolt from the vocal dickheads who still think they did the right thing.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Rich B on June 29, 2016, 04:28:52 pm
http://news.sky.com/story/1719119/ftse-100-recovery-nears-eu-exit-vote-high
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: tricky on June 29, 2016, 04:35:04 pm

http://news.sky.com/story/1719119/ftse-100-recovery-nears-eu-exit-vote-high


Quote
Market experts have said the bounce in stock values is likely to be shaky and potentially short-lived because of the lack of clarity on the UK's future - both politically and economically.

"What we’re seeing in the FTSE is hope in Britain being able to ride it out by remaining part of the single market. This looks like wishful thinking."
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Russ on June 29, 2016, 04:38:16 pm

http://news.sky.com/story/1719119/ftse-100-recovery-nears-eu-exit-vote-high


Which has little relevance to much, as the FTSE 100 is pretty much all global organisations. Their share prices will be positively affected by news that they're departing the UK, divesting UK operations, and/or otherwise mitigating their reliance on the UK.

The FTSE 250 is a more useful gauge, which is trending in the right direction but still well over a thousand points off where it was when you voted for Christmas.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Rich B on June 29, 2016, 04:42:00 pm
Just sat here bored sh!tless at work ( transferring thousands of emails which is taking forever ) and I just couldn't resist.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Russ on June 29, 2016, 04:44:36 pm

Just sat here bored sh!tless at work ( transferring thousands of emails which is taking forever ) and I just couldn't resist.


Resist what? Posting irrelevant stories that fail to support your increasingly futile argument?
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Rich B on June 29, 2016, 04:54:46 pm

Resist what? Posting irrelevant stories that fail to support your increasingly futile argument?


Lighten up Russ old fruit, you used to be fun
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on June 29, 2016, 05:01:15 pm

Which has little relevance to much, as the FTSE 100 is pretty much all global organisations. Their share prices will be positively affected by news that they're departing the UK, divesting UK operations, and/or otherwise mitigating their reliance on the UK.

The FTSE 250 is a more useful gauge, which is trending in the right direction but still well over a thousand points off where it was when you voted for Christmas.


The thing to watch out for in a rebound is volume:
(https://s31.postimg.org/qrc1758jf/Bounce.png)

Gone back to previous level with lower volume of buying - compare the green bar to the prior red ones. I'd be more convinced if we saw much larger volume.
Couple of things to note: Stocks will appear cheaper to foreign investors due to weaker Pound and like I said before volatility will be King for quite some time...
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Simon. Not Steve or Nazimon on June 29, 2016, 05:36:34 pm
Hugo Rifkind just made a a decent point, I think:

So, here's how the Leave campaign got carried away and broke Britain.  (1)
They wanted to win on "sovereignty". Unfortunately, nobody except them cares about that, or knows what it is. (2)
So, instead, they decided to win on immigration.  This worked. (3)
Unfortunately, free movement isn't a function of being in the EU, but of being in the single market. (4)
So, now their mandate says we have to leave the single market. (5)
Which is insane. (6).
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Andyp on June 29, 2016, 06:09:31 pm
Just had a thought. How can UKIP keep the same name when their jingoistic basically racist message has been rejected by Scotland, Northern Ireland and London. Who can think of a suitable new name?
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: RD on June 29, 2016, 06:20:51 pm

Just had a thought. How can UKIP keep the same name when their jingoistic basically racist message has been rejected by Scotland, Northern Ireland and London. Who can think of a suitable new name?


UKUNT
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Jeff on June 29, 2016, 07:48:59 pm

Just had a thought. How can UKIP keep the same name when their jingoistic basically racist message has been rejected by Scotland, Northern Ireland and London. Who can think of a suitable new name?


Oi, and Rushcliffe.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: jp on June 29, 2016, 07:49:09 pm

Wow, who's getting a little serious and antsy eh jp?

Feel free to come call me dickhead to my face, old fruit.

Piss take all you like but that's just a little bit naughty.


You've behaved like a dickhead. You voted for something you didn't understand and then afterwards said that it was up to the 'experts' to sort out the wreckage. You'll just have to put up with being called a dickhead, I'm afraid.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: jp on June 29, 2016, 07:53:24 pm

Totally. Had this argument with my Mum this morning. She was "well, we've just got to get on with it". No we haven't. We can still protest, argue and make life as difficult as possible for the "leave" leaders. Who ever the f*ck they are. (Gove and Boris seem to be keeping a very low profile....)

Write to your MP. Ask him/her that when they have to vote to reppeal the EU act (which might have to happen before even envoking Article 50) that they vote no. And as so many MP's voted to remain, this could be the moment to stop all this.

A better explanation is here: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/27/stop-brexit-mp-vote-referendum-members-parliament-act-europe


I'm in this group too. f*ck this 'well, that's the game we played and they won' nonsense. This man expresses it very well.

http://www.breakingviews.com/columns/hadas-britain-picks-the-wrong-time-to-play-games/
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: BrettWilliams on June 29, 2016, 09:35:26 pm
Much parodied before but this one is pretty funny. Apologies if it's already been posted - I'm not trawling back though all these pages to check.

http://www.thepoke.co.uk/2016/06/29/brexit-version-downfall-take-us-inside-boris-johnsons-bunker/
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: DaveM on June 29, 2016, 09:49:07 pm
So now two of the Conservative candidates (assuming Johnson stands) have stated that they will not have a 'snap' election if they become leader/PM

Thats not good news in my book.

I wonder if Corbyn does cling to power, whether that stance would change...
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: RD on June 29, 2016, 09:51:13 pm
Selecting Stephen Crabb looks like a sideways move
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: DaveM on June 29, 2016, 09:52:20 pm

Selecting Stephen Crabb looks like a sideways move


Our choice for future world-leader could come down to a Crabb, a Fox, an Eagle or a c*nt
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: RD on June 29, 2016, 09:58:14 pm

Our choice for future world-leader could come down to a Crabb, a Fox, an Eagle or a c*nt


Doesn't matter who you vote for, a c*nt always gets in
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Simon. Not Steve or Nazimon on June 30, 2016, 07:53:55 am

So now two of the Conservative candidates (assuming Johnson stands) have stated that they will not have a 'snap' election if they become leader/PM

Thats not good news in my book.

I wonder if Corbyn does cling to power, whether that stance would change...


Stated is one thing. When they get into power, get told what's going to happen to the economy in the next 3 and a bit years and see Jeremy Corbyn as leader of the other side, they may well change their mind. No one wants to be the PM who got chosen and never won an election.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: charlie on June 30, 2016, 07:59:20 am
Guardian view on why it may not be too late...

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/30/not-too-late-negotiate-way-out-disaster-take-courage

Labour sure as hell need to ditch Corbyn to make it possible though.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: karlmark on June 30, 2016, 08:29:49 am

Guardian view on why it may not be too late...

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/30/not-too-late-negotiate-way-out-disaster-take-courage

Labour sure as hell need to ditch Corbyn to make it possible though.


Labour will split. Why? The political landscape has changed beyond recognition even since the last general election. UKIP has succeeded in dragging the national debate to the far-right; let's make no mistake, they are a far-right party and should be labelled as such. This has widened the distance between the traditional centre ground and the core Labour left of centre.
Our political system does not allow any in-betweens; the winner-take-all nature of our politics means that the main parties have to crystallise around what they see as most likely to win power. We have seen this in action with the Conservatives as fears over their own seats have led to them co-opting some far-right UKIP policies with the result that we are likely to see the most right-wing government in history once the current mess is resolved.

The only way to try and moderate this is by having a more representative electoral system. With a more proportional vote we would still see far-right parties and far-left parties represented in Parliament; however, the bulk of the parties would reside towards the centre which would greatly moderate any extremist tendencies. A large chunk of Labour members still support Corbyn; why shouldn't they be represented in Parliament? In the same way, why should the far-right UKIP not be represented in Parliament? I find their views utterly abhorrent, but their voters deserve representation just as much as mainstream Conservative and Labour voters.

This is not a call for a left-wing counter-revolution; everyone's vote should count and everyone's voice should be heard in Parliament. Government by whips and homogeneous MPs within a party excludes the majority of the population.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: steve on June 30, 2016, 09:00:59 am
Agreed. And part of the reason UKIP gets away with lots of crap is that it has no representation so there is nowhere to hold it to account.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Lessred on June 30, 2016, 09:20:04 am
Now Gove is standing.... Looks like it's going to be PM May then
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: Simon. Not Steve or Nazimon on June 30, 2016, 09:23:03 am

Now Gove is standing.... Looks like it's going to be PM May then


She still has to get into the the final 2 and then persuade 50% of a very anti Europe party to choose her when she was on the side of remain.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: charlie on June 30, 2016, 09:23:17 am
May has to be better than the alternatives.
Title: Re: This Europe Stuff
Post by: RD on June 30, 2016, 09:25:47 am