Skip to main content

Recent Posts

1
The Daily Cut and Thrust / Re: Thrown to the Wolves!
Last post by Russ -
Both Russ and Dave are criticising Warburton for how he played Cash.

Wasn't Cash injured for almost all of his tenure?

Where what how please? I don't believe I said anything of the kind.
3
There just has to be an acceptance that at this level, there is a need for fairly quick progression. Standing still or going backwards is just burning money and benefiting no-one.

We've been looking for fairly quick progression for about 20 years now. Maybe it's not the best approach?
4
The Daily Cut and Thrust / Re: Thrown to the Wolves!
Last post by tricky -
Yes I know how it is. Old one is bad, new one is great. Until the new one is the old one... But you know how that is too.

All we have to do is keep finding a reason to sack the old one, then we can get the new better one. Nothing can hold us back. We will obviously stop when we get the perfect one who makes no mistakes while he is working this miracle that nobody has achieved for twenty years.

I've been banging the drum for value and stability and development for years... That's how you get better and get more out of your spending power. Compared to many at this level our spending power isnt all that. If we get the best out of what we have we'll continue to get panned. What we've got isn't all that.

I don't see how sacking the last manager for this one suddenly makes us closer to a coherent plan and structure and areas of excellence that outperform our competitors... Who start ahead in those fields.

It's wishful thinking. The plan we had last transfer window, according to the chairman at the time, is now down the pan. That's not plan or structure. Is it not reasonable to be concerned about that?
5
The Daily Cut and Thrust / Re: Thrown to the Wolves!
Last post by DaveM -
Both Russ and Dave are criticising Warburton for how he played Cash.

Wasn't Cash injured for almost all of his tenure?

I think he has been fit for a little while now hasn't he? I may be wrong
6
The Daily Cut and Thrust / Re: Thrown to the Wolves!
Last post by DaveM -
How did the club develop under Billy Davies?

I didn't say it did. I just said that at this level a more directive and tactical form of management is, I think, more effective and Davies certainly took that line and I think Karanka does too.

Quote
I disagree with what you think.

Well thats good. The day you fully agree with me is the day I give up on football I think :)

Quote
I can't guarantee you that long term thinking and development will pay off. I can guarantee you that short termism and churn won't - on the evidence of what we have seen.

I don't disagree with this in general, but I do think it is naive to believe any manager will be given unlimited amounts of time to get things right, when the rewards for promotion and the penalty for relegation are so astronomical. It may not be 'ideal' but searching for that to happen will never reap satisfaction I'm afraid. The only way it will do is if the manager gets some short term success in parallel - which is what essentially happened at some of the other clubs held up as role models for this long-burn-development.

Quote
I can also guarantee you that we can't outspend every other club in the division.

Who said anything about outspending anyone?

Quote
So how do we make ourselves better?

Become more organised, harder to beat and try to build a squad who have togetherness and can make a real challenge for the play-offs (next season, not this). Whilst that is happening, look to ideally bring someone in who has a holistic view across the club to ensure we are developing kids to be first-team ready and have all the necessary structures in place. Do good business in the transfer market, even if that means selling one or two of our more promising academy 'products' to allow us to continue to strengthen the first team. Buy wisely. Keep selling the demand for excellence throughout the club and eventually, get promotion. Then if history tells us what to do (ie. Bruce, Dyche, Benitez), keep the manager in place even if we get relegated, and use the income from that promotion to push to regain PL status, but now with a far more stable financial footing then seek to consolidate as well as do stuff like upgrade our academy status.

Ok, I've riffed a bit there, but it's not all about throwing a structure in place and everything magically happening. We need to have some success as a club in order to be able to maintain the management and slowly build.

Quote
Or is the objective just to be a form of distraction... Get excited by new shiny, get frustrated that shiny isn't winning, demand new shiny, rinse and repeat?

Sort of, but it's not a distraction - it's reality.

There just has to be an acceptance that at this level, there is a need for fairly quick progression. Standing still or going backwards is just burning money and benefiting no-one. I don't mean promotion has to be demanded immediately - that would be stupid. But if a manager doesn't look like they are up to the task, and the club feel the same way, then a change is a positive thing. Just keeping something in place that isn't working on the vague hope that it will work, eventually, may be nice for a mid-table League 1 side or a National League side, but can't happen in this division simply due to the financial stakes (and financial burn of simply existing).

Quote
Genuine questions.

I do get where you are coming from, I just think you will be always disappointed.
7
Both Russ and Dave are criticising Warburton for how he played Cash.

Wasn't Cash injured for almost all of his tenure?
8
The Daily Cut and Thrust / Re: Thrown to the Wolves!
Last post by Jüânfrân -
Karanka's been in for two games.
A poor home defeat and an excellent away win. Let's not draw too many inferences or get too carried away just yet.
9
The Daily Cut and Thrust / Re: Thrown to the Wolves!
Last post by tricky -
How did the club develop under Billy Davies?

I disagree with what you think.

I can't guarantee you that long term thinking and development will pay off. I can guarantee you that short termism and churn won't - on the evidence of what we have seen.

I can also guarantee you that we can't outspend every other club in the division.

So how do we make ourselves better?

Or is the objective just to be a form of distraction... Get excited by new shiny, get frustrated that shiny isn't winning, demand new shiny, rinse and repeat?

Genuine questions.
10
The Daily Cut and Thrust / Re: Thrown to the Wolves!
Last post by DaveM -
One of the interesting things that happened when the Baker left was that the players were almost queuing up to say what a good coach he was, and how they enjoyed trying to play that way. 

Really? I can't recall seeing or hearing anything from the players after Warburton left. Which is usual in such situations.

I must admit, I didn't see a whole lot of evidence of the young players progressing under Warburton, other than getting a chance at first team level. Worrall was thrown into a terribly organised defence and did well frankly but doubt it helped his development much. Cash never seemed to make the team. Brereton was played in a position that was alien to him and one he didn't play in coming through the academy and seemed completely ineffectual in. The only player who seemed to improve was Walker, but even he was played in an inconsistent way. I guess Smith has done very well but he had to really, and I'm sure he will feel far more comfortable not being pressured into high-risk distribution going forward.

Now there could have been a lot going on behind the scenes, but I don't think there is any evidence of it.

Plus, I don't want players to be enjoying 'trying' to play some way and losing. I want us to be a winning football team, otherwise the churn of management will never stop.

The more I think about it, and the more these debates rage on, the less convinced I am of anything other than Warburton seemed a nice bloke and the extent of his tenure was to just insist players play out from the back and only make short passes - which to be honest, anyone could do. There didn't seem to be any tactical tweaking based on the opposition or even the players strengths, he didn't seem to have that much faith in his own signings at times, and if the reports are even half-true there may have been ructions behind the scenes and his mate who came with him was perhaps not doing the recruiting job he was supposed to in the best interests of the club. Lot's of heresay and rumour there I admit, but I'm way less bothered about his departure based on what I saw compared to how I thought I would be following his appointment.

As for the recent uptick in performance, I think the single biggest factor is organisation. Analyse the opponent, look for weaknesses, exploit them and most critically drum into the squad in the days leading up to the game exactly how they should play.

We are not dealing with world-class players here. A mistake of Warburton, and to some extent of other previous managers we have had, is giving the players room to make their own decisions. Billy Davies would practically tell players where they should be standing and where they should be making runs...now we know he was as mad as a coot, but I think that is what players - especially young players - at this level need. I think Karanka has come in and is basically doing the same, and whilst it won't always work out I think that is why he has had success at this level previously.